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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 29th of August 2017

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Aug 29 00:02
    I have forgotten how to get JAWS to just read a web page. Might someone remind me? This time I’ll write it down. I’m trying to read this page, so that I can update how Edge is being announced by Narrator and Edge: https://jonathantneal.github.io/rat/tests/hidden.html
  2. ^ I am keenly aware that this is a highly embarassing question. I tried reminding myself, Googling for the answer. I failed.
  3. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 00:05
    [ugi] Insert + Down Arrow?
  4. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Aug 29 00:08
    Thank you, ugi. You are my hero! You’ve not only answered my question, but helped me solve why I forgot. Parallels is not forwarding my Insert key properly.
  5. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 00:10
    [ugi] aahh, np!
  6. [marcysutton] I use a Microsoft keyboard for that reason! Way easier than mapping keys.
  7. [ugi] thanks for reminding me that, it’s something I tried and failed in the past. Is there a way to get insert key working correctly in Parallels?
  8. [caesar] I've just got JAWS set on "mobile" keyboard layout and use CAPS key for the JAWS key instead...
  9. [caesar] I'm finding more and more keyboards don't even have an Ins key any more
  10. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 00:21
    [ugi] thanks @caesar
  11. [ugi] btw, I just realized that Jaws started highlighting the elements, as I navigate using virtual cursor. That is really cool!
  12. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Aug 29 00:25
    caesar, I am trying to figure out how to configure this. I went to Utilities > Settings Center > Keyboard > General, but that only let me change the key for JAWS Key for Desktop Layout.
  13. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 00:27
    [jonathantneal] Where might I change it to this “mobile” mode?
  14. [ugi] What's New in JAWS?
  15. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 00:34
    [caesar] Options > Basic Settings > Use keyboard layout: Laptop
  16. [caesar] Utilities > Settings Center > Keyboard > General > JAWS key for Laptop Layout: Caps Lock
  17. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Aug 29 00:46
    I was able to do that, but for whatever reason, Parallels likes the Caps Lock key even less than Insert :(
  18. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 01:07
    [caesar] LOL any chance of using Bootcamp and loading Windows natively instead of running through the VM?
  19. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Aug 29 01:33
    I ended up digging out an old Windows keyboard. Mapped to capslock because Narrator uses capslock. I am back in business, and you are still my hero.
  20. yay ugi and ceasar
  21. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 03:29
    [cklatik] Okay I've got an ARIA + iOS question for everyone today ---
    On properly wired menus that work fine in NVDA w/ FF and JAWS + IE, and christ even Narrator and Edge... The menu will only fire the haspopup announcement, and requires an expansion, then colapse, then expansion to get VO to announce that the menu is expanded.
    Is this a thing? Is it a known bug?
  22. [cklatik] I've tried it out on a bunch of common demos/samples out there, and it's totally reproduceable.
  23. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Aug 29 03:36
    @cklatik can you point to one of those demos
  24. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 03:37
    [cklatik] microsoft.com
  25. [cklatik] washington.edu
  26. [cklatik] http://heydonworks.com/practical_aria_examples/#submenus
  27. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Aug 29 03:40
    This seems to work ok. https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/examples/menubar/menubar-1/menubar-1.html
  28. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Aug 29 03:47
    If you want it to announce expanded then you should put aria-expanded on it I believe. I don’t think these examples are doing that.
  29. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 03:49
    [cklatik] hmm... i believe they do... at least they apear to be .. the w3c example only announced as "show's popup" again after activating the menu button
  30. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Aug 29 03:50
    Hmm. Works fine on my device.
  31. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 03:51
    [cklatik] @jnurthen It's announcing "expanded" after you activate the menu item? On iOS 10.x?
  32. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Aug 29 03:51
    I’m only on iPad at the moment so can’t inspect the dom. Heydon doesn’t state he adds aria-expanded and he normally states all the agtributes added.
  33. I’m on 11
  34. Confirmed doesn’t on 10 on my phone but announces “expanded” on 11
  35. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 03:55
    [cklatik] Huh... I wonder if it's something fixed in 11 !?
  36. [cklatik] And you're totatlly right, Heydon is usually explicity.
  37. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 08:50
    [skymaiden] hello! i have a question re modal dialogs on touch devices vs desktop computers:
  38. [skymaiden] on desktop we trap keyboard focus inside the modal dialog while it's open
  39. [skymaiden] on mobile there isn't necessarily any keyboard – do we still need to trap focus?
  40. [skymaiden] do screen readers follow keyboard-like focus? (to know if trapping keyboard focus impacts screen readers)
  41. [skymaiden] if anyone here can enlighten me, i'd be very grateful :)
  42. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 09:16
    [erik] People can attach a keyboard to their mobile device.
  43. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 09:42
    [skymaiden] that's true, i'll trap focus then
  44. [skymaiden] anyone know if it impacts screen readers too? (that would be a happy side effect in the case of a focus-trapping dialog)
  45. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 09:56
    [tink] @skymaiden screen readers are not restricted to conventional keyboard interaction.
  46. [tink] To make sure a screen reader can't access the content of the dialog, you'd need to prevent it accessing all the underlying content by setting aria-hidden="true".
  47. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 12:34
    [skymaiden] thanks @tink! would setting aria-hidden="true" be expected behaviour when a modal dialog is open, for a person using a screen reader?
  48. [skymaiden] it seems like it would make it work the same way as for keyboard users or mouse users
  49. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 14:07
    [vyku] Does anyone know if the scroll bars on mobile sites need to be accessible? other words do they need to get keyboard focus?
  50. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 15:08
    [geekf] @vyku I don't think scroll bars need focus. People use scroll gesture on mobile devices (2 finger scroll when a11y is enabled on mobile devices)
  51. [geekf] @skymaiden The expected behaviour for modal dialog is to keep users in the dialog by all means till the user disposes the modal dialog. This requires trapping tabs and adding aria-hidden="true" to all the background elements.
  52. [geekf] On mobile users have the swipe-right gesture to go to the next focussable element which works like tab on desktop but doesn't get trapped when you are trapping tabs.
  53. [droidpinkman] timely: https://github.com/edenspiekermann/a11y-dialog
  54. [vyku] thank you @geekf
  55. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 15:16
    [svinkle] Hey even more accessible modals to add to the grab bag! =D
    • https://github.com/svinkle/launchy
    • https://github.com/davidtheclark/react-aria-modal
  56. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 15:37
    [skymaiden] thanks @geekf @droidpinkman and @svinkle for the info and examples :)
  57. [skymaiden] i'm "fixing" existing projects from other teams in my organisation, where accessibility wasn't even an afterthought
  58. [skymaiden] but the accessible modals linked to will still be useful as examples
  59. [skymaiden] the good news is i'm organizing a workshop next week, so we can create a culture of accessibility in my company – and hopefully i won't have to "fix" other people's stuff in the future
  60. [tink] That's a good thing to do @Skymaiden. It takes time, but if you can get it started that's worth doing.
  61. [svinkle] @skymaiden That’s so awesome! I find people start to care more and really own this after they’ve been exposed to the ideas an reasoning behind thinking in accessibility. Nice one! =D
  62. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 15:43
    [skymaiden] hopefully i'll build a small army of a11y allies within my company :)
  63. [scottohara] good luck!
  64. [svinkle] @skymaiden Perhaps this is already a part of your workshop, but I’d like to suggest showing some videos of how people experience the web via assistive technology. This can be very eye-opening. I think there’s lots of videos available on YouTube. :)
  65. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 15:49
    [geekf] @skymaiden I took an accessibility session for my colleagues and I learnt that all they want to know are the available attributes and their use cases. Tried to give a test demo and no one wants to hear the TTS voice :(
  66. [skymaiden] good idea @svinkle, i'll look for some good ones! they'll be complementary to my very basic demos (keyboard, screen reader, magnifier, switch control)
  67. [skymaiden] @geekf there are such cool tts voices though
  68. [geekf] Not really. There are some voices which sound more pleasant than others but average human being who isn't dependent on a screen reader expects the sound to have proper tonal adjustments depending on the context being read out.
  69. [geekf] Read a paragraph aloud yourself and compare it to how a screen reader reads it.
  70. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 15:54
    [skymaiden] yep, but hopefully at least some people will understand that not everyone has the choice...so our work is important
  71. [geekf] And it's hard to explain to them that it is sort of a miracle in itself that there exists a tool that can read out text with this precision.
  72. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Aug 29 15:55
    Is there a channel like a11ySlackers but more loosely related subjects? I’ve had questions about semantic HTML, and LTR / RTL, but they are not directly related to accessibility as far as ATs, ARIA, or roles are concerned.
  73. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 15:58
    [geekf] @skymaiden I totally agree with what you said. I am still trying that they do care about a11y not just from legal compliance point of view but also from user experience. I wish you all the best.
  74. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 17:55
    [tink] Reminder that the Inclusive Design 24 #ID24 call for presentations is open until 17th September https://inclusivedesign24.org/
  75. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 21:09
    [ngonzales] I actually made an extension that will place all of the colors from an adobe or coolors palette to the eightshapes grid. That way you dont have to cut and paste each one individually. Makes it a lot easier if you're still coming up with a palette and want to check over and over as you edit. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/contrast-connection/ldccnnebhlhfghgchnneeboejgihbfcj
  76. [vyku] when a web site has multiple pages is it necessary to provide a back to to option in the context of Accessibility?
  77. stacycarston
    @stacycarston
    Aug 29 21:45
    I've been doing some testing with JAWS, and have noticed that it doesn't switch to forms mode when a radio button receives focus. If it is already in forms mode (such as when the previously focused item was a text input) it will stay in forms mode, but if you switch back to browse mode for any reason (maybe there's a link between the input field and the radio button group), focusing on the radio buttons does not switch back to forms mode. Does anyone know if:
    • This is something JAWS does intentionally, or a bug?
    • Is this something that would trip up or frustrate screen reader users, or do most JAWS users quickly pick up on what's going on and know they need to switch modes manually.
  78. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 21:53
    [caryn] @stacycarston does this help? Sounds like it’s intentional. Ooooh JAWS. http://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Surfs-Up/Forms.htm
  79. stacycarston
    @stacycarston
    Aug 29 22:07
    Thank you @caryn! That is helpful
  80. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Aug 29 23:03
    Wow, today I learned that Arabic communicating countries are still used to left-to-right media controls, e.g. the play button faces right, the right arrow moves forward, etc. https://hacks.mozilla.org/2015/09/building-rtl-aware-web-apps-and-websites-part-1/
  81. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 29 23:26
    [dpogue] https://material.io/guidelines/usability/bidirectionality.html from Google's Material Design spec is a great read about RTL and which things face which directions