Meeting minutes
TDM Protocol reference in EPUB
<Ivan Herman> Date: 2024-01-05
<Wendy Reid> w3c/
<Wendy Reid> https://
Wendy Reid: there's a proposal to have tdm in EPUB files.
<Ivan Herman> guest+ James_Yanchak
James_Yanchak: tdm working group has covered many formats, EPUB is the final primory format to deal with. Do we do it a book level, file level? File level is easy as it's HTML, book levl would be more accurate, but it's adding a namespace in the OPF.
<Ivan Herman> This is how it would look side on the EPUB side:
<meta property="tdm:reservation">1</meta> <meta property="tdm:policy">https://provider.com/policies/policy.json</meta>
Tzviya Siegman: what's he urgency?
James_Yanchak: it's related to the EU directive. More and more complains appears about files used for AI training. So it's important now.
Brady Duga: lot of different groups are working of the subject, what are the interactions?
James_Yanchak: I would say we are focusing about publishing in the EU, I hope the other groups will follow us when it comes to EPUB.
James_Yanchak: the main question, is about can we add a namespace? It causes EPUBs to be invalids. Original TDM is adding a namespace. But we can have a Prefix without adding a namespace (like DC:.
Leonard Rosenthol: I represent C2PA wich also work on the subject. C2PA supports EPUB. Regarding others industries (images, videos, audios), are not going the way to add something to the file. Also to know, many countries are working on legislations, the paysage is changing.
<Leonard Rosenthol> EPUB support in C2PA - https://
Ivan Herman: back to the original question, prefix mecanism on the package document is easy because we have nothing to do. The question is do we need to add something to spec but it's not urgent.
Tzviya Siegman: the question is would RS support one or another method. What will happen at the RS level? Can they process this information?
Wendy Reid: reatilers and distributors will be looking at this information. OPF level looks the easier method to process this information. On the retail side, contracts are also playing a role, we won't do anything without a previous discussion with publishers.
Ivan Herman: in the standards we do not define what RS may should or must do with the metadatas. So we don't have to change anything in the standard.
Ivan Herman: if you choose the HTML level, you have to also consider media resources.
David Hall: there could be implications for what RS are allowed to do with the content. Specifically we may have to prevent usages depending on the specification of the restriction.
Brady Duga: we don't have any control of what the TDM group doesthis sounds like managing digital rights. It sounds like DRM to me.
Leonard Rosenthol: the line is fine, true. part of the issue is we are not speaking about copy rights. We are responding to legislations, trying to technicaly solve a legislative process. Still it's usage restriction.
Brady Duga: we don't do DRM in the manifest, can we do TDM reservation?
Wendy Reid: EPUB ecosystem is not only the file, we also have ONIX associated metadata. When we get to the content, that's where EPUB should be able to reflect the publisher request negociated in the contracts.
Ivan Herman: prefix respects the charter. We only acknowledge that another group does something which is doable in EPUB.
Brady Duga: looking at the third choice, maybe we can just say don't do anything to the manifest.
Brady Duga: contracts and agrements with publishers don't allow you to break the law. the TDM implementation is over publishers arangements because it's legal.
Tzviya Siegman: it's important to meet with others people working on TDM. Maybe schedule a joint meeting.
Tzviya Siegman: there may be a strong interest from publishers to have TDM not separated.
Leonard Rosenthol: C2PA does not modify the structure.
Leonard Rosenthol: C2PA or TDM don't adress translation. There's a clear technical difference between translation or recomandation algorithms and training an AI.
George Kerscher: some possible accessibility implications. Cognitive disability may request a simplified version of the text than can be offered by an AI. A blind person may want a more accurate description generated by AI.
Ivan Herman: parts of our discussions are relevant to the TDM group. Our focus should be how we answer the TDM communtity.
Wendy Reid: to respond the TDM group we need to talk with them. In the current state we don't have nothing to do but we may want to add a note to the EPUB spec.
Ivan Herman: we don't take side about the best protocol, we are only responding to the question of the TDM group. Is it ok for us to have something added to the manifest or no?
Leonard Rosenthol: I agree with the group remaining agnostic to technical solutions.
Tzviya Siegman: as we have questions and concerns about how solutions will be implemented we should discuss with the TDM group in one of their meetings
Brady Duga: it looks like we see no problem with the prefix approach proposed by the TDM group
Ivan Herman: my proposal is to say the TDM group yes, it works.
Avneesh Singh: maybe the Community Group will want to adress the side discussions.
Wendy Reid: we'll discuss with the TDM group to point our concerns and comment that the proposition is doable.
Wendy Reid: there's no blocker.