Meeting minutes
Webtoons' proposal (PR #2602)
<Tzviya Siegman> Date: 2024-02-02
<Shinya Takami> w3c/
Shinya Takami: We have a PR
… can someone explain the PR?
Wendy Reid: we both change the EPUB core and EPUB RS documents, in both documents we creating a new heading for telling that renditions flow metadata apply to both FXL and reflowable EPUB
… we also created diagrams to explain the behaviour we expect when rendition flow is applied
… we also change a MUST to a MAIN when we say about RSs that may ignore renditions flow
Ivan Herman: is it correct that this change reflexts what is happening with webtoons?
… are we documenting existing practices?
Shinya Takami: It depends: we're using rendition-flow = continuos, Apple is using it in their apps
Gregorio Pellegrino: did we discuss it at last two TPACs? Didn't we agree to move to the CG for experimenting?
Ivan Herman: We the last WG there was not enough time, I don't remember with CG
CG*
David Hall: Yes, we are using it in FXLs EPUBs
Hadrien Gardeur: I think it really depends on what we agree it is a webtoon
… the division is not structurale, the vertical image is split just for distribution
… this helps also for optimization in loading
… this content is consumed in specialized platforms outside the generic EPUB ecosystem
… I think that instead of discussing about webtoons, we're misusing an existing property
… that may hurt other use cases, I think there is place for a broader discussion
Brady Duga: about optimization: you can scroll the images natively, instead of using images in HTML
Shinya Takami: In Japan many publishers are using EPUB as an interchange format, more then for a B2C format
Ivan Herman: I'm trying to remember how it started: Japan publishers where worried of having a new big market (webtoons) outside the EPUB ecosystem
Wendy Reid: I discussed with Hadrien offline, I think his comments are valid, at the same time I think we have to respond to this emerging market
… for the comment about the "logistic" (series, episodes, etc.) I think this is a metadata issue
Tzviya Siegman: I'm feeling like I felt when FXL came out
… we had an implementer who implemented it in a way and we adapted the format in that way
David Hall: content specification for a true webtoon may be more performant
… I would split this PR from "webtoons", this is about how FXLs should be displayed with rendition-flow: continuos
Brady Duga: we raised this issue two years ago and suggested to move it to the CG
… we should have done it two years ago
… I think also that webtoons is a trademark and we should not use it
Hadrien Gardeur: to respond to David, no one asked for continuos scrolling outside of webtoons
… continuos scrolling is difficult to get with EPUBs, and even more with EPUB FXLs
… what I see that happen around the world is to tweak the format for doing things that are outside of the standard
… I don't think that hacking something is a good approch
… I think is better just to say "this is a webtoon"
… and manage that publication in a specific way
… instead of tweaking a metadata that was intended for other stuff
Shinya Takami: In Japan we what to find a simple way to make comics in EPUBs
… we want to separate this PR with minor changes to the spec
Wendy Reid: I think it is important to speak with Amazon (Kindle) on this
… to understand if this solution is good enough
Ivan Herman: Hadrien propose to add a new metadata to say that the publication is a "webtoon"
Shinya Takami: actually we already have special metadata for webtoons
Hadrien Gardeur: in Japan there are a lot of profiles
… with XML prefixes to add information
… personally I don't think it is the way to move to metadata
… we have metadata conformsTo metadata (used for accessibility), we may use it for telling the publication conforms to webtoon
… it doesn't break anything
Gregorio Pellegrino: for adding metadata to EPUB is not required to change the specs, you can use the meta tag
… other comment about process, I think is better to move trough the CG, as we're doing for accessible FXL
Brady Duga: I don't like the conformsTo approach, in any cases we need a spec to say what to do, in both cases we'll end up with RSs that will display broken webtoons
Tzviya Siegman: I agree with Brady, if we have to create a new profile, we don't have the charter to do this, we can only maintain the spec that is already published
… I think we should have everything in the main spec
Hadrien Gardeur: to respond to Brady, I think that implementing vertical scroll is very expensive, specialized RSs are extracting images from the HTML and display them in canvas or similar
… no matter what we do, it will be broken in most of reading systems
… or we may suggest them a simpler way to ingest the EPUB and display only images
Shinya Takami: I understand the performance issue, I think we should separate this discussion from the PR and wait for the Amazon comment
Ivan Herman: Hadrien Gardeur, do you think the additional metadata is in addition to the PR?
Hadrien Gardeur: no, it is instead of the PR
<Tzviya Siegman> +1 to Wendy Reid
Wendy Reid: I understand Hadrien's point, a new metadata may lead to exotic values
… where publisher expect some type of rendition
Ivan Herman: I think for the moment we'll not merge the PR
… in the meantime I think we may work on test cases
… and implementations, to be sure that it is feasible
David Hall: does the PR specify a MUST or MAY conformance?
Wendy Reid: a MAY, before that rendition-flows was not available for reflowable
… not you can use that value for fixed layout
David Hall: so a RS that does not support webtoons will display the publication in separated pages
Hadrien Gardeur: In Japan there are already different profiles that create stuff on top of EPUBs
… I think we should look at them
… at the same time I think webtoons are quite different from the other type of publications, and requires some extra research
David Hall: I think we are not in line with the semantic of the content... webtoons are different from web comics
… so having a demo may be useful
Wendy Reid: I'll make a video
Shinya Takami: I'll contact Amazon for partecipating to the next meeting