Meeting minutes
<ivan> Date: 2024-03-01
Webtoon PR
<tzviya> w3c/
shiestyle: we contacted amazon on the issue, they responded being neutral.
ivan: i have a quetsion after last week discussion. I understand the technical proposal in the PR may not be the best approach. Does the solution in the PR reflects current practices in implemetation or not? It is an important argument
david_hall: I think yes
shiestyle: in japan, not only amazon, also major Reading system vendors.
david_hall: what would be process to write a new specification?
ivan: that would mean a new charter.
Hadrien: originaly webtoons were invented in Korea, then adopted in Japan, China, and elsewhere. In France they meet with traditional "Bande Dessine" who are not using EPUB, they prefer other formats. I would like to have someone from Korea in this discussion. I know that there's a new format being used there, for an ISBN related issue, they considered EPUB and went on another solution. We are missing the overall picture.
shiestyle: this PR approach is not the best one to me, but as japan is the biggest market for webtoons, EPUB based webtoon is used.
br
duga: this is a change to allow EPUB to be used for webtoon. Using different format is a great option, but if someone distrbutes webtoons as EPUB. We shall accept different formats.
gpellegrino: we are not getting to consensus. As previously suggested, should'nt we move to community group to get more incubation work?
<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to talk about business needs v technical needs
ivan: the change proposed offer an aditional way of displaying fixed layout. We may see that angle, not a webtoon specific one.
AvneeshSingh: is it so important to get it in the rec now? we could start with a community report with what's inside the PR as a starting point to further collect feedback on uses. Would it be an acceptable proposal?
Hadrien: I agree with Gregorio and Avneesh propoasl, a wider group discussion would be good.
Hadrien: it's problematic for reading system implemtation as it may break things. we're introducing complexity not necesary. That complexity will be on reading system developpers shoulders.
duga: we went community group one year ago, nothing happened. Japan moved, they are producing and consuming that way. It's late for incubation.
duga: I agree this is not the best property to use, it was not designed for it, but it works.
david_hall: i see uses out of the webtoon context
<tzviya> 1 to david_hall
<tzviya> s/1 to david_hall /+1 to david_hall
shiestyle: if we don't have any approach, maybe even japanese market will not accept EPUB for webtoons. Time is important.
<Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask shiestyle to clarify who he represents
Hadrien: if EPUB is not the right format and we need to twist it's arm for that, it's not a good option. Again, we need a larger group. Different extensions and property have been used in the past, I see no difference today. It can still be used withou being in the specification. Is it because Apple or Amazone will use them?
tzviya: for consensus, the question is can you live with it.
duga: we need to do that because actually the way they use this property is illegal, we have to fix that.
<tzviya> Proposal: Adopt PR #2602
<tzviya> +1
<david_hall> +1
<duga> +1
<George> 0
<gpellegrino> 0
<Hadrien> -1
<toshiakikoike> 0
<shiestyle> +1
<CharlesL> 0
<ivan> 0.5
<MasakazuKitahara_> 0
<AvneeshSingh> 0
-1
gautierchomel: I don't have enough information. I need more time / information.
tzviya: it is a "May"
gautierchomel: I feel it may block a solution.
… this is 1/2 a solution.
Hadrien: I agree as described by the folks in Japan, I don't think this is any different from what others have done.
… even "may" solution
tzviya: we are not trying to create a new specification.
… so so you think we don't need to change the spec to package webtoons.
duga: suggesting that we should go back to Japaneses publishers to come up with some new metadata?
… similar to this but would not cause epubcheck to complain.
<tzviya> acl shiestyle
Hadrien: even in Japan there isn't any consensus. maybe status quo is acceptable.
shiestyle: this will not define a new webtoon format.
… current spec is prohibited for fixed layout for reading system. current epub spec allow to use for fixed layout for content creators but not allowed for reading systems. we want to improve for Japanese market.
ivan: I find it difficult to accept. in Japan there are a number of different publishers their own way with metadata to solve this issue. argument is this is already done we might as well just leave this alone since they have already done it, but we are a standards company and there will be zero interoperability. We should have a larger community to work together to develop webtoons.
… but this is not the group to do that.
<tzviya> +1 to Ivan
ivan: but if this makes things illegal -> legal then I am for it.
… year ago talked about setting up a CG, but we haven't done anything to do that, but I don't know the players.
… no membership fee to join the CG.
tzviya: we have heard that W3C must figure out relevance to prevent fracturing.
… getting into EPUBCheck is important.
Hadrien: We are trying to reframe it but useful for fixed layout but if we have to justify it we go back to webtoons.
duga: I dont this we agree, this is about webtoons. how you do webtoons in epub.
… webtoons in epub is what we are doing, we are not doing webtoons just how to get webtoons into EPUB.
tzviya: we are at an impasse.
… we are waiting for feedback from Amazon.
ivan: I would like to have feedback from other publishers / RS in or outside of W3C.
… where we are today we should not publish it. we must get other publishers reactions to this. emphasizing webtoons IN EPUB specifically.
… we were discussing PRH and there may be others we need to reach out to.
Hadrien: I can reach out to Média on our side manga publisher in Europe.
ivan: we can talk to PRH.
tzviya: I have an email out to Liisa.
Ivan, we need more feedback.
<CharlesL> s/xyz/Média Participations
tzviya: PRH is dealing with this, once Liisa responses. She will know who to reach out to.