Meeting minutes
<Wendy Reid> Draft F2F Agenda -> https://
Wendy Reid: Let's start. I promise to bribe the scribes at the F2F
… We have a rough f2f agenda, rough because we want input
… We tried to push things later in the day for timezone reasons
… bu inria has operating hours we have to respect
… More technical stuff is afternoon for better attendance for remotes
… if there is a session you want to attend but can't, please let us know
… And let us know if we missed anything
Charles LaPierre: Ouch, that is early
Avneesh Singh: We should be planning for the a11y TF
… I don't think we will have time for a meeting beforehand, so can we have a 45 min to 1 hr session at the f2f?
… And make sure the CharlesL and George can make that time
Gregorio Pellegrino: We are changing times in Europe, so the times may be wrong
Wendy Reid: [updating the times]
Charles LaPierre: Fixed layout a11y will be pushed to afternoon?
Wendy Reid: Yes, that will probably be what happens
Wendy Reid: We have a new person! Seh, introductions?
seth: I've been working with Dave for years
… I need to help Dave with spec work, since he has other things on his plate
David Hall: My roles have changed inernally, so Seth will help, but I will stick around
Footnotes and Extended Descriptions - w3c/epub-specs#2690
<Wendy Reid> w3c/
Wendy Reid: footnotes have come up a couple of times on the list, and gpellegrino opened an issue on extended descriptions
… these are very similar issues
… There was once a philosophical decision that epub would explain how to make the metadata, etc, but we wouldn't tell them how to actually write their books
… We are now seeing there is confusion around features, how to do them well and interchangeably
<Wendy Reid> w3c/
Wendy Reid: There are probably more issues than just footnotes and extended desc
… I opened an issue to see if there are other things that would benefit from having an approach
<Gregorio Pellegrino> cover page!
Susan Neuhaus: Most of my projects don't let me push the envelope very much
… can we think of this in two ways, one as a best practices doc, and another for people who want to be more creative?
… We have also matured, RS have really taken over the UX side
… I am not sure I would want to push the envelope for most titles
Hadrien Gardeur: Constraints can be liberating
<Susan Neuhaus> +1
Hadrien Gardeur: Without constraints we can't provide some features
<Gregorio Pellegrino> +1 to Hadrien Gardeur
Hadrien Gardeur: setting constraints actually makes features possible
Wendy Reid: Because of the interconnectedness of content and RS, what is the best approach for producing the document?
<Dale Rogers> +1 to Hadrien Gardeur
Wendy Reid: It isn't a huge change to add best practices, but it is huge o put it in the spec
Gregorio Pellegrino: I think a note is the right thing
… the same as 1.1 a11y techniques doc. Notes are easier to update
… though, with a note we can really check implementations
Avneesh Singh: I am reluctant to at user experience mandaes to the spec
… if we need a normative change we should start from ux
<Susan Neuhaus> +1
Brady Duga: We've certainly had a philosophical position of not mandating UX, except for the times we do (FXL)
… not sure if it's philosophical or practical, footnotes had epub:type for a long time
… but it also caused RMSDK to crash, and it was the main way books were displayed for a long time
… we didn't understand the consequences of the decision, and now we have a mess where people avoided using epub:type
… and there's endnotes vs footnotes, we're not picking one or the other, not something we can dictate
… we did dictate it, and it didn't work, and we created a problem, but it's hard to put in the spec, we don't know what will crash tomorrow
Ivan Herman: I must admit, it is difficul to put this into practice coming from the web
… if we put constrains, then are we fighting with what html says to do?
… hml5 goes into extreme detail since it reverse engineers what actually happened in browsers
… how would a RS constraint work? Are we splitting the web?
… If I do a note with best practices, that is fine, but if it is normative it is scary
Hadrien Gardeur: There is already a lot we do that isn't the web (e.g pagination)
… So this is already the reality
… So footnotes is probably better as best practices
… We already live in a world where we diverge
… But things like popup footnotes are a problem, since they work one way on one platform and differently on another
Gregorio Pellegrino: We also have spine and TOC which is different from the web
… We need guidance on how to mark things up
… Without proper markup RS have to try and guess which causes problems
<Ivan Herman> +1 to gregorio
Gregorio Pellegrino: the bar shouldn't be on the RS implementation, but on what we expect from authors
<Hadrien Gardeur> +1 to what gpellegrino just said
<Laurent Le Meur> +1 to Gregorio
Wendy Reid: We want to push content creators to use html to the full extent
… And we don't see that much today
… Some books are just endless P tags, with different styles
… There is also dpub-aria which is under utilised
… Content creators often don't know what will happen if they use it
Avneesh Singh: Footnote, extended desc, these are important for a11y
… when they change it causes confusion
… We need conformance reqs
… for instance, we need a way to get back from footnotes
… this can be broad guidance
Wendy Reid: It is helpful for RS implementors to get things in a standard way - implementors know what things would be good here
Ivan Herman: So we start with some sort of note, say best practices, keeping an eye on whether we need new things in the spec (eg epub types)
… but I am not seeing much need for normative changes
Wendy Reid: I think that is right
Charles LaPierre: Another thing is page breaks, they all seem to be different
Brady Duga: On the reading system normative side, I think there are some
… being able to go back from a footnote, that's a normative thing we might want to say
… it's strange, but there might be something to add there
… another thing might be the display of footnotes in popups, most RSs display the text, but footntoes aren't used in Japan, they have ruby
… we could make normative statements, if you display a popup, use the HTML
… we can spec all we want, but if there is no one doing it, it may not matter
… we shouldn't be too prescriptive, we should respect the content
Charles LaPierre: Also linking in general, the web already has a back buton
… having a RS mimic that has been missing
… for instance one to many links are hard to author correctly wihout rs back funcionality
Hadrien Gardeur: For back affordance, there are some RS that have history
… sometimes there is contextual back, usually for following links
… Apple set implementation for popups, but displaying the content richly is really hard
… styling, for instance, is really hard
… No one has managed to do popup + styled
Shinya Takami: Japanese content is pretty complex, so we generally refrain from footnotes
Susan Neuhaus: Ebooks may also diverge on location in the documen
… sometimes we need to be able o point back to a printed item
Ivan Herman: Annotation popups will be an issue
Charles LaPierre: And footnote popup can be extended to ext desc
… So guidance there would be great
… WW Norton (Evan Yamanishi) did some experiments with that back in the day
… maybe we can use those as examples
AOB
Ivan Herman: Practical point - how should we handle zooms for TFs? Should we use the same or use new ones?
Hadrien Gardeur: Not likely we overlap with the group meeting
… Maybe TF overlaps? But we should probably avoid that
Ivan Herman: I would like the TF leaders to avoid overlap with the main meeting
<Laurent Le Meur> +1 to Ivan Herman
Ivan Herman: on the other hand, having two TF overlap can happen
… If that is a real possibility we should have more zooms
Charles LaPierre: Last week we had csun, I presented guidelines, Amazon was there and they will use it in their store
Avneesh Singh: This work has been done in the CG if people want to follow along
Ivan Herman: Any chance to get Amazon in this group?
<Gregorio Pellegrino> Post referenced by Charles: https://
<Charles LaPierre> here is that link for the viewer
<Charles LaPierre> DAISY Accessibility Metadata Viewer
<Charles LaPierre> https://
<Charles LaPierre> Accessibility Metadata Display Guide for Digital Publications 2.0 https://