Meeting minutes
Scrolled Comics
Wendy Reid: first topic is scrolled comics - over to Shinya Takami
Shinya Takami: Our TF discussed specs for scrolled comics
… we already have webtoons formats in Japan, but the current style isn't good for the specs
… so we need to determine how to define webtoons in the specs
… so today we will present two proposals
… first, we have rendition-scrolled [is that the right one?]
… we will add a new value
… we did not have a strong opposition to rendition-layout: scrolled
… we want both new and existing features to be valid
… so we want to update the note like this
Hadrien Gardeur: Voyager Japan sent an email that was very supportive regarding that approach
… I think this concept that we add a new thing while acknowledging the old this is consistent with the way we have done this before (e.g. fixed layout)
… So mention the old way, but encourage the new way for implementation consistency
Wendy Reid: What is the fallback scheme?
… if we get a book with rendition-layout: scrolled? Most RS would fall back to reflow
… should we have some sort of fallback?
… Maybe a fallback rendition-layout value?
Hadrien Gardeur: I have done some testing, first the way the current style works, and they generally just show as fxl
… which is really bad
… I then tried the new way and it falls back to flowing, which is also bad
… we are asking for a new mode
… if a RS doesn't have it there isn't much to do
Susan Neuhaus: If we decide on a fallback mode maybe ask for pagination from the contet creators
… not great but better than reflow
Brady Duga: I'm not sure how feasible that would be, there is actually a company that does this, they make money off paginating webtoons, it's not trivial
… it would be nice if every webtoon had an alternative that did this.
… question I had is what is the mandated behaviour of rendition-layout if it's unknown?
… are we supposed to assume its reflow?
Hadrien Gardeur: In my testing its treated as reflow
Wendy Reid: I am checking now
… "must use one of the following"
… reflowable is the default
Shinya Takami: Japanese publishers just won't sell them on platforms where it doesn't work
Susan Neuhaus: How does this relate to panel by panel navigation?
… will webtoons do that?
Hadrien Gardeur: I would argue it isn't really necessary since the content was designed for phones
… panel to panel is helpful for reading things on smaller devices
… Also maybe for a11y
… And as far as I am aware panel to panel in Amazon is proprietary
… And as shiestyle said, just not providing content is probably fine
… and at some point we should talk to Editour and get the property added
… so the content can be filtered out
Wendy Reid: We should get a PR so we can see it in place
… Shinya Takami, Hadrien Gardeur, can you work with Matt to get this done?
Hadrien Gardeur: Sure we will have a PR ready before the next TF report to this group
EPUB to ISO
Wendy Reid: Our other topic was ISO
… we want to take EPUB 3.3 to ISO. There are other groups that want it ASAP. ISO is still on 3.0.1
Gregorio Pellegrino: As you may recall we asked for the group to wait on this until the EU a11y legislation was done
… If we go to ISO then it will be adopted by the EU, so it will be a different spec than the one publishers are using
… so we made an arrangement for them to reference the W3C version
… so the European commission did not require the ICT version
… the EAA will go into effect in two weeks, but as of now there is no committee request to reference EPUB standards as ICT Technical Specification
… so I would request that we wait
Wendy Reid: Can't they do whatever they want?
Gregorio Pellegrino: The ICT is just a reference and the EC will endorse it
Wendy Reid: How long are they going to make us wait?
Matt Garrish: Can we split it up?
… then we can push at least EPUB 3.3, but delay a11y spec?
Wendy Reid: Is this ICT thing for a11y 1.1 and epub 3.3?
Gregorio Pellegrino: We presented a11y 1.1, epub 3.3., and RS 3.3, so they may point at those as well
Wendy Reid: This is very awkward
… If we go to ISO, one option is they could just keep going with the current path
… will they decide to change what they are pointint at?
Leonard Rosenthol: They can do whatever, but that doesn't mean they will
Wendy Reid: So are we really worried about going to ISO, and they will change what they are using?
Leonard Rosenthol: They do have to make changes by agreement with the committees involved
Wendy Reid: I want to understand what is technically possible vs what will actually happen
Gregorio Pellegrino: They decided to exclude e-book from the mandate to update EN 301 549
Avneesh Singh: ISO is a kind of trigger, and historically we have had trouble keeping European standards in line with us
… so we really don't want to have to open a new can of worms
… gpellegrino what are your thoughts on the previous efforts here?
Gregorio Pellegrino: Even with that huge effort (EU version of WCAG), it isn't in a great
… place
Avneesh Singh: And we are smaller than the web
George Kerscher: After [date I missed], there is an existing default standard that will be in place
… If we wait a little while before going to ISO, the more it establishes the existing defacto standard
… Once we have that we should be able to go to ISO
… I can't imagine at that point going to ISO would cause a harmonized spec to trigger
Susan Neuhaus: Is this a place where backwards compat will help us?
… Since their older books will still be usable
… I am not sure of the utility of waiting if everything is backwards compatible. What would happen if we went to ISO with 3.3?
… Will this require new things of publishers?
Wendy Reid: The prime example is WCAG and EN3459
… For instance the EN spec covers a lot more than the web, web is just one chapter
<Gregorio Pellegrino> 1+
Wendy Reid: But I got on the queue to say we are using the PATH approach to going to ISO
… so there isn't much room to change things (just minor termiology)
… This is per agreement between ISO ad W3C
… so I don't think we need to worry that it will cause a change anything substantively
… But all we have been hearing "just wait" with no timeline
… And the rest of the world is on hold without even having a deadline
Gregorio Pellegrino: two things on what may happen
… First, they may require new metadata, and all content made now without it will cause all current epubs to fail
Wendy Reid: I guess we are stuck waiting again
Brady Duga: Do we just set a reminder to ourselves to have this conversation again in 6 months, a year?
Gregorio Pellegrino:
Gregorio Pellegrino: I think TPAC is the right time to discuss again
Shinya Takami: Let's continue at TPAC
AOB
Avneesh Singh: TPAC - when do we want to have the meeting? APA is already looking at their cross group meetings
… DAISY will be having meetings on the 12th and 13th, so it would help to have dates ASAP
Wendy Reid: I have already requested the 10th and 11th, our typical Monday/Tuesday
Brady Duga: What about the survey? Did we agree on the wording?
Susan Neuhaus: yes, we have agreed and we have the Japanese translation
… And Ivan is working on it, though he is off
Susan Neuhaus: Which brings us to who we are sending this to
Charles LaPierre: and in addition, do we have the verbage for the email that links to the survey
Wendy Reid: We should have a wiki or doc to coordinate and propose text
<Susan Neuhaus> +1
Avneesh Singh: We will be sending out the inclusive publishing newsletter, so if it is ready then we can add it there
Wendy Reid: May SueNeu and I can work on setting up coordination for comms