Meeting minutes
Avneesh Singh: Let us take a break of a month and resume meetings 21st August.
Fix the type of the certifierCredential property: Issue #2112
Avneesh Singh: about certifier credential should it be a text string, URLs in it?
<Avneesh Singh> w3c/
Avneesh Singh: , link is important for GCA logo.
<Charles LaPierre:>when we first come with this metadata it was supposed to be a link to a credential page with more information including logo. Distributors like Vital Source, we negotiated and if they see this url, the display the logo. If we change to text only, thousands of EPUBs out there will have an issue and need to be updated.
Avneesh Singh: when using this field in the reading systems it may not be useful to the users since they can't display the logo
<Avneesh Singh:> plain link is not user friendly and not often used as a link by the reading systems. Users would have a better information if they read GCA instead of a raw URL.
<Charles LaPierre:> One way would be to recommend RS to find an image when they get this specific URL. But yes it's extra work.
Avneesh Singh: whats the recommendation from the group? status quo?
… , what about using refines to provide the URL.
Dale Rogers: is this a matter for the Standards, or is this a requirement for the one certification body.
Avneesh Singh: Thorium wants to display this metadata, if you have the URL to the credential
Charles LaPierre: we could add a new metadata like certifier credential name with a refine, so it can be used by RS without needing to update too many epubs.
Avneesh Singh: Lets see what Matt things of this approach.
George Kerscher: right now there is a link that the RS cannot fetch the logo from the link they can show it but may not be an active link.
… , now a new requirement they they want to display this for discovery.
Hadrien Gardeur: refine in general in EPUB is problematic a RS will probably ignore it. we get a flat representation of the metadata.
George Kerscher: but the metadata would be there and therefore just display the name of the "organization".
Hadrien Gardeur: We roll out things that potentially won't get used.
George Kerscher:If we have the new metadata why need for refines?
Hadrien Gardeur: part of the problem is multiple certifiers potentially.
Avneesh Singh: if a RS is showing a link is that a problem. but it may not be clickable.
George Kerscher: a lot of links are pretty understandable. but having a link that has GCA in the link is pretty readable.
Avneesh Singh: we don't want to disrupt existing implementations.
George Kerscher: that should be good enough for a reading system to present to end user.
Extended Descriptions in EPUB3: Issue #2691
<Avneesh Singh> w3c/
Gregorio Pellegrino: define a common way to semantically tag an extended description the image, the link to the description and the backlink.
… , give this template to publishers so that it becomes a common way to do extended descriptions and RS can start to leverage this tagging, and tools of the supply chain, can start extracting the extended descriptions, etc. could utilize this common tagging structure. I made 2 versions to try to experiment with the semantics we have now.
… , without new ARIA codes/attributes I released first set of examples, and we discussed and I made an update that I released yesterday the latest version 2 files 1. main content with the actual chapter with 2 images both having a extended descriptions, one with a fig/figcaption and the other is just an image without a container with linksto the extended descriptions to a different file, it is in the spine with linear no, so you can
only reach it via the link not by browsing to the end of the book.
… , this document 2 sections are the tags we used for the container for the ext-desc. with the image with role="presentation" alt="", and then the extended description with back link to the original image.
… , limitations: 1. tried to put link to the ext. description inside the fig tag but after the caption. the fig caption must be first or last tag of the figure. so the link is in the caption as a result.
2. we don't have proper semantic roles to the link to the extended description. JS / tools can select all the links to the extended descriptions, but for the ext. desc. container we don't have a solution. RS can implement across different document what links point to the container file, or some new roles would need to be added to DPUB aria for example.
Avneesh Singh: the identification is done by aria-details on an image pointing to a link anchor which goes to the extended description file.
… , this is main focus area, is this enough special behavior for RS, accessibility checking tools, etc. or do we need something more for explicitly specifying the container of the ext. description.
George Kerscher: Years ago there was longdesc attribute which could go to a different page of the description, which was opposed. since you could loose where you were if you went to a different page.
… , we have an id pointing to the link. maybe it is problematic link to another file in an attribute in which case having a similar relationship like noteref/footnote have a extendedDescRef and extendedDesciption as DPUB aria roles.
… , RS could figure out this is an ext. description ref, not sure how that could be figured out.
Gregorio Pellegrino: even if we have a role to a link to the ext. description using aria-details we are already linking the image to the link to the ext. description. to identify those with the ext description. and which image they extended description is defined for.
Hadrien Gardeur: True in general that RS / Browser to work with info in a single document. A read-aloud feature we would extract a tree for the current document and when you ref. something in a different resource is more work but not impossible to do. The more external references the more work.
… , if we expect the RS to extract info from another resource that becomes more problematic ie. read-aloud if you want it to go and get the ext. description read in-line.
Avneesh Singh: what if the ext. desc. was on the same page, but the problem is aria-details can be used on any element not just images.
Hadrien Gardeur: if we want the ext description beside the image. all comes down to use-case and what should we do with the ext. description. Pop-ups are so bad, and some publishers don't put noteref footnote for this reason
Gregorio Pellegrino: knowing proper tagging but in edu. setting having a sidebar containing the ext. description could be different UX implementations.
Hadrien Gardeur: On blue sky I can put alt text on image, and users must include it, if I see something that the image has an alt text, and if I click on it I can see the image and display its description. Are we expecting something like this image details affordance with extended description and alt text description.
Gregorio Pellegrino: tts could have some settings to announce the fact there is a ext-desc. or to read the description or not, also skipablility could also be possible.
… , if the markup to do something like that is what we are trying to achieve.
Hadrien Gardeur: if image has alt text and ext-desc. we could provide an indicator and provide an image details view. we could have something in verbosity in read-aloud.
… , screen readers is a black box, either we hope they do the right thing, or we create a new view were we fetch the ext. desc. in the middle of the text so the SR will read the ext. desc.
Avneesh Singh: do we want to work on some kind of role, broader use case includes browsers or is this just publishing and DPUB aria role. broader ARIA role will be more challenging.
Hadrien Gardeur: this seems broader than publishing.
Daniel Weck: aria-details is html identifiers can target more than 1 element, what happens to reach into an <a> element
… , in an example I saw one links to a <p> and the other pointing to the <a>
<Gregorio Pellegrino> https://
Daniel Weck: , when I hover over an image I see the outline of the image and can click on it brings up a new popup with the image can be zoomable but add additional information displaying the alt attribute, the fig caption. and the extended description
… , we could dump the entire text of the hyperlink. which is I can hit back, or use the back link you provided.
… , epub type backlink has an outstanding issue.
<Hadrien Gardeur> +1 to what Daniel said, which is very similar to my Bluesky example
Daniel Weck: , leaning more towards fetching the nonlinear document ext. desc. and providing a different view with additional AI description.
… , using the footnote popup if I have to render the HTML into a new viewport it could be a challenge.
Avneesh Singh: epubtype is deprecated, so do we need a new role. annotating the <a> hyperlink the destination is optional but useful if the Longdesc. is inside an aside then the aside should be hidden, so you don't repeat the description if they are available on demand with a popup.
Gregorio Pellegrino: do you think role for enabling the UX do you think it is needed to have a role, or could we achieve it with the xpath you could identifiy the links by aria-details we may end up with broken experiences.
Daniel Weck: because aria-details can link to multiple reference so that could be an issue. xpath is expensive, CSS selectors better. whereever we can us a role on a target or source link is better.