Meeting minutes
<sueneu> https://
sueneu: Here is the list of attendees we have so far
… Shall we start with f2f topics?
topics for F2F
ivan: I have a started list for discussion
… We need to decide on HTML and messaging
… Image in spine would be good for f2f
… Annotations tech will start to come up, I would feel better if the group could bless any direction
… maybe with a short over of the annotations work
… Not sure about epub in ISO, is it time to discuss that again?
mgarrish: I was just on for the ISO topic, but ivan covered it
… it would be nice to stop referencing 3.0.1
<ivan> +1 to Hadrien
Hadrien: I have opened a bunch of issues, mostly on rendition properties, that I think should be deprecated
… I would like that on the agenda
<sueneu> +1 to Hadrien
Hadrien: a lot of that is related to images in spine and continuously scrolled
duga: we should probably have time for all the task forces and the topics they want to discuss
ivan: One more thing, in a different category
… based on a chat about web publication manifest
… is this work we want to take up? How/when/who/if
… but it isn't an epub topic, so it should be separated from the rest
sueneu: If the WPM isn't an epub topic, where does it go? Business group?
ivan: No, we are chartered to cover it
Hadrien: Laurent and I have discussed WPM as a breakout session
… so that is an option
… we also wanted to have a breakout on accessible comics
… and then maybe something on AI, but that is a bit vague
ivan: The problem with a break out is remote participation, mgarrish and I won't be there, and are not available at all times
sueneu: We will make a list and review next week
… Move on to bikeshed
name for scrolled comics rendition
<shiestyle> w3c/
sueneu: what to really call the new property
sueneu: I made a table for a quick vote
… everyone votes near 1st, 2nd, 3rd choice
sueneu: is this feasible?
… there are a lot
ivan: Some have been thinned out
Hadrien: roll, scroll, some others are popular
duga: It's too many
<Dale> https://
Hadrien: Which list?
duga: The one in google docs
ivan: People are already voting in the doc
sueneu: I don't like tiled
… A single tile is not complete
duga: I do not like scroll or scrolled, since this is where we started
@ack hadrien
Hadrien: I am opposed to vertical in the name, since we may want direction eventually
ivan: Roll is emerging as the winner
Dale: there seems to be energy against scroll
… the DOM uses scroll for movement in the document
… so I think we should stay with it
ivan: Scroll completely misled me
… since we already use it, I am opposed
<Hadrien> > A scroll is a long, narrow piece of paper or parchment that is written or printed on and then rolled up for storage. A roll is a similar type of document that is made by rolling up several sheets of paper or parchment together.
sueneu: should we vote between tile and roll?
ivan: sure
<kimberg> tiled actually has two -1s
<Hadrien> > The main difference between a scroll and a roll is the number of sheets that are used. A scroll is typically a single sheet of paper or parchment that has been written or printed on and then rolled up, while a roll is made up of multiple sheets that are attached together and then rolled up.
can we get plus ones/minus ones for roll?
<gautierchomel> +1
<ivan> +1 for "roll"
<Hadrien> +1
<toshiakikoike> +1
<shiestyle> Proposed: "roll" for rendition:layout for scrolled comics
<ivan> +1
<wendyreid> +1
<duga> +1
<sueneu> +1
<Hadrien> +1
<CharlesL> +1
<gpellegrino> +1
<shiestyle> +1
<Dale> +1
<toshiakikoike> +1
<George> +1
<ivan> bikeshed?
<gpellegrino> is it a dish?
RESOLUTION: "roll" for rendition:layout for scrolled comics
@ ivan
ivan: We have the term, does that mean the PR can be merged?
Hadrien: No, a large portion of the discussion is images in spine
ivan: Leaving the PR open for months will be bad
… merging an incomplete PR is better than leaving it open with the document changing under it
mgarrish: In this case, some of the changes are useful even if we back it out
… but others would need to be pulled
Hadrien: I can make the change, it is easy
sueneu: and mgarrish will take a look to see if it should be merged?
mgarrish: Yeah, I have to look at it given my major PRs, it will need to be corrected to merge properly
Play order for FXL
sueneu: There was misunderstanding on it last time
… George, can you explain?
George: We had a similar issue with DAISY 3 for determining order
… so there we added a sequence, so each item had a play order
… so it is designed to provide a linear order for fixed layout
wendyreid: We didn't understand where it would appear? Is it document level (each doc is ordered), or is it inside the document, so each item in document is ordered
gpellegrino
George: I didn't get into the details
gpellegrino: I am not sure if this will work with current assistive technologies
… since it is already using the DOM order, and we won't be able to change that
… so it is interesting, but we need to make sure it can work natively on the web
gautierchomel: We have a reading order inside a page, we are good. But if my reading order goes across pages then we have a problem
… to do it today requires a bunch of tricks
… This never happens on a web page - reading over is never across resources
… so I think we should set this aside and consider a solution that handles cross resource
mgarrish: We already have flowto, so not sure we need something for AT
… but there is no "flowacross" where the reading order skips across pages
… it will be very hard to get AT to skip around resources
Hadrien: I think the biggest problem is the content can be spread over multiple resources
… we have pages across spread, but it could be half a sentence in one spread, the other half in another
… I don't see how to solve this with html or aria
… We would need something like smil, or another custom navigation structure on top
sueneu: So should we close this and open a new one?
gautierchomel: We already have several issues already about audio sync
… we have the same problem for TTS, FXL with AT, etc
… this becomes worse when we talk about [visual narratives]
… we could move this to a discussion, and not have an issue open to keep the issues tracker size down
… I think we have an FXL meta issue on this, maybe point to that?
sueneu: So should we close the issue and move it to a discussion?
ivan: Discussion where?
gautierchomel: Maybe the discussion feature in github?
… I just prefer that or something like it to have a discussion open in an issue tracker that is never closed
wendyreid: We discussed discussions last week, maybe we can use this as a test case
… we have a lot of these, it would be good to try the feature out
ivan: to move ahead - A. close it. B. wendyreid or someone looks into the feature and set it up C. we use it for this case
wendyreid: We have the feature, nothing to turn on
ivan: gautierchomel says it isn't on
wendyreid: Oh, maybe I can see it because I am a maintainer
… I will make sure to turn it on
ivan: So after the minutes are up and the discussions are ready, we will close it with a pointer to the discussion
AVIF files in the package
<shiestyle> w3c/
Hadrien: A few years ago I added a similar issue about webp
… it is the fastest growing format
… widely used today
… images is a funny case, since we have a whitelist for them
… unlike other media types
… so it is a strong choice to add
ivan: We have at least two implementations at this point (Thorium and Mac's Books)
<kimberg> not sure offhand
ivan: so this is probably just an editing issue
shiestyle: In Japan many RSes don't support even webp
… so I think it is good to add avif
ivan: Let's do a formal proposal
Proposed:Add AVIF to the EPUB package
<sueneu> +1
ivan: and I am happy to do the PR
<shiestyle> +1
<ivan> +1
<Hadrien> +1
<toshiakikoike> +1
<duga> +1
<gautierchomel> +1
<Dale> +1
<wendyreid> +1
<MasakazuKitahara> +1
<CharlesL> +1
RESOLUTION: Add AVIF to the EPUB package