Meeting minutes
<Susan Neuhaus> https://
Susan Neuhaus: Here is the list of attendees we have so far
… Shall we start with f2f topics?
topics for F2F
Ivan Herman: I have a started list for discussion
… We need to decide on HTML and messaging
… Image in spine would be good for f2f
… Annotations tech will start to come up, I would feel better if the group could bless any direction
… maybe with a short over of the annotations work
… Not sure about epub in ISO, is it time to discuss that again?
Matt Garrish: I was just on for the ISO topic, but ivan covered it
… it would be nice to stop referencing 3.0.1
<Ivan Herman> +1 to Hadrien Gardeur
Hadrien Gardeur: I have opened a bunch of issues, mostly on rendition properties, that I think should be deprecated
… I would like that on the agenda
<Susan Neuhaus> +1 to Hadrien Gardeur
Hadrien Gardeur: a lot of that is related to images in spine and continuously scrolled
Brady Duga: we should probably have time for all the task forces and the topics they want to discuss
Ivan Herman: One more thing, in a different category
… based on a chat about web publication manifest
… is this work we want to take up? How/when/who/if
… but it isn't an epub topic, so it should be separated from the rest
Susan Neuhaus: If the WPM isn't an epub topic, where does it go? Business group?
Ivan Herman: No, we are chartered to cover it
Hadrien Gardeur: Laurent and I have discussed WPM as a breakout session
… so that is an option
… we also wanted to have a breakout on accessible comics
… and then maybe something on AI, but that is a bit vague
Ivan Herman: The problem with a break out is remote participation, mgarrish and I won't be there, and are not available at all times
Susan Neuhaus: We will make a list and review next week
… Move on to bikeshed
name for scrolled comics rendition
<Shinya Takami> w3c/
Susan Neuhaus: what to really call the new property
Susan Neuhaus: I made a table for a quick vote
… everyone votes near 1st, 2nd, 3rd choice
Susan Neuhaus: is this feasible?
… there are a lot
Ivan Herman: Some have been thinned out
Hadrien Gardeur: roll, scroll, some others are popular
Brady Duga: It's too many
<Dale Rogers> https://
Hadrien Gardeur: Which list?
Brady Duga: The one in google docs
Ivan Herman: People are already voting in the doc
Susan Neuhaus: I don't like tiled
… A single tile is not complete
Brady Duga: I do not like scroll or scrolled, since this is where we started
@ack Hadrien Gardeur
Hadrien Gardeur: I am opposed to vertical in the name, since we may want direction eventually
Ivan Herman: Roll is emerging as the winner
Dale Rogers: there seems to be energy against scroll
… the DOM uses scroll for movement in the document
… so I think we should stay with it
Ivan Herman: Scroll completely misled me
… since we already use it, I am opposed
<Hadrien Gardeur> > A scroll is a long, narrow piece of paper or parchment that is written or printed on and then rolled up for storage. A roll is a similar type of document that is made by rolling up several sheets of paper or parchment together.
Susan Neuhaus: should we vote between tile and roll?
Ivan Herman: sure
<Daniel Kimberg> tiled actually has two -1s
<Hadrien Gardeur> > The main difference between a scroll and a roll is the number of sheets that are used. A scroll is typically a single sheet of paper or parchment that has been written or printed on and then rolled up, while a roll is made up of multiple sheets that are attached together and then rolled up.
can we get plus ones/minus ones for roll?
<Gautier Chomel> +1
<Ivan Herman> +1 for "roll"
<Hadrien Gardeur> +1
<Toshiaki Koike> +1
<Shinya Takami> Proposed: "roll" for rendition:layout for scrolled comics
<Ivan Herman> +1
<Wendy Reid> +1
<Brady Duga> +1
<Susan Neuhaus> +1
<Hadrien Gardeur> +1
<Charles LaPierre> +1
<Gregorio Pellegrino> +1
<Shinya Takami> +1
<Dale Rogers> +1
<Toshiaki Koike> +1
<George Kerscher> +1
<Ivan Herman> bikeshed?
<Gregorio Pellegrino> is it a dish?
RESOLUTION: "roll" for rendition:layout for scrolled comics
@ Ivan Herman
Ivan Herman: We have the term, does that mean the PR can be merged?
Hadrien Gardeur: No, a large portion of the discussion is images in spine
Ivan Herman: Leaving the PR open for months will be bad
… merging an incomplete PR is better than leaving it open with the document changing under it
Matt Garrish: In this case, some of the changes are useful even if we back it out
… but others would need to be pulled
Hadrien Gardeur: I can make the change, it is easy
Susan Neuhaus: and mgarrish will take a look to see if it should be merged?
Matt Garrish: Yeah, I have to look at it given my major PRs, it will need to be corrected to merge properly
Play order for FXL
Susan Neuhaus: There was misunderstanding on it last time
… George Kerscher, can you explain?
George Kerscher: We had a similar issue with DAISY 3 for determining order
… so there we added a sequence, so each item had a play order
… so it is designed to provide a linear order for fixed layout
Wendy Reid: We didn't understand where it would appear? Is it document level (each doc is ordered), or is it inside the document, so each item in document is ordered
Gregorio Pellegrino
George Kerscher: I didn't get into the details
Gregorio Pellegrino: I am not sure if this will work with current assistive technologies
… since it is already using the DOM order, and we won't be able to change that
… so it is interesting, but we need to make sure it can work natively on the web
Gautier Chomel: We have a reading order inside a page, we are good. But if my reading order goes across pages then we have a problem
… to do it today requires a bunch of tricks
… This never happens on a web page - reading over is never across resources
… so I think we should set this aside and consider a solution that handles cross resource
Matt Garrish: We already have flowto, so not sure we need something for AT
… but there is no "flowacross" where the reading order skips across pages
… it will be very hard to get AT to skip around resources
Hadrien Gardeur: I think the biggest problem is the content can be spread over multiple resources
… we have pages across spread, but it could be half a sentence in one spread, the other half in another
… I don't see how to solve this with html or aria
… We would need something like smil, or another custom navigation structure on top
Susan Neuhaus: So should we close this and open a new one?
Gautier Chomel: We already have several issues already about audio sync
… we have the same problem for TTS, FXL with AT, etc
… this becomes worse when we talk about [visual narratives]
… we could move this to a discussion, and not have an issue open to keep the issues tracker size down
… I think we have an FXL meta issue on this, maybe point to that?
Susan Neuhaus: So should we close the issue and move it to a discussion?
Ivan Herman: Discussion where?
Gautier Chomel: Maybe the discussion feature in github?
… I just prefer that or something like it to have a discussion open in an issue tracker that is never closed
Wendy Reid: We discussed discussions last week, maybe we can use this as a test case
… we have a lot of these, it would be good to try the feature out
Ivan Herman: to move ahead - A. close it. B. wendyreid or someone looks into the feature and set it up C. we use it for this case
Wendy Reid: We have the feature, nothing to turn on
Ivan Herman: gautierchomel says it isn't on
Wendy Reid: Oh, maybe I can see it because I am a maintainer
… I will make sure to turn it on
Ivan Herman: So after the minutes are up and the discussions are ready, we will close it with a pointer to the discussion
AVIF files in the package
<Shinya Takami> w3c/
Hadrien Gardeur: A few years ago I added a similar issue about webp
… it is the fastest growing format
… widely used today
… images is a funny case, since we have a whitelist for them
… unlike other media types
… so it is a strong choice to add
Ivan Herman: We have at least two implementations at this point (Thorium and Mac's Books)
<Daniel Kimberg> not sure offhand
Ivan Herman: so this is probably just an editing issue
Shinya Takami: In Japan many RSes don't support even webp
… so I think it is good to add avif
Ivan Herman: Let's do a formal proposal
Proposed:Add AVIF to the EPUB package
<Susan Neuhaus> +1
Ivan Herman: and I am happy to do the PR
<Shinya Takami> +1
<Ivan Herman> +1
<Hadrien Gardeur> +1
<Toshiaki Koike> +1
<Brady Duga> +1
<Gautier Chomel> +1
<Dale Rogers> +1
<Wendy Reid> +1
<Masakazu Kitahara> +1
<Charles LaPierre> +1
RESOLUTION: Add AVIF to the EPUB package