W3C

Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco

02 October 2025

Attendees

Present
Charles LaPierre, Dale Rogers, Brady Duga, Gautier Chomel, George Kerscher, Gregorio Pellegrino, Hadrien Gardeur, Ivan Herman, Daniel Kimberg, Masakazu Kitahara, Matt Garrish, Shinya Takami, Susan Neuhaus, Toshiaki Koike, Wendy Reid
Regrets
-
Chair
Susan Neuhaus
Scribe
Brady Duga, Susan Neuhaus

Meeting minutes

<Susan Neuhaus> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dlfG9mX2mWSGf_Q1LB67OJ_d2UD3IG_X1rfAOTjmb3g/edit?usp=sharing

Susan Neuhaus: Here is the list of attendees we have so far
… Shall we start with f2f topics?

topics for F2F

Ivan Herman: I have a started list for discussion
… We need to decide on HTML and messaging
… Image in spine would be good for f2f
… Annotations tech will start to come up, I would feel better if the group could bless any direction
… maybe with a short over of the annotations work
… Not sure about epub in ISO, is it time to discuss that again?

Matt Garrish: I was just on for the ISO topic, but ivan covered it
… it would be nice to stop referencing 3.0.1

<Ivan Herman> +1 to Hadrien Gardeur

Hadrien Gardeur: I have opened a bunch of issues, mostly on rendition properties, that I think should be deprecated
… I would like that on the agenda

<Susan Neuhaus> +1 to Hadrien Gardeur

Hadrien Gardeur: a lot of that is related to images in spine and continuously scrolled

Brady Duga: we should probably have time for all the task forces and the topics they want to discuss

Ivan Herman: One more thing, in a different category
… based on a chat about web publication manifest
… is this work we want to take up? How/when/who/if
… but it isn't an epub topic, so it should be separated from the rest

Susan Neuhaus: If the WPM isn't an epub topic, where does it go? Business group?

Ivan Herman: No, we are chartered to cover it

Hadrien Gardeur: Laurent and I have discussed WPM as a breakout session
… so that is an option
… we also wanted to have a breakout on accessible comics
… and then maybe something on AI, but that is a bit vague

Ivan Herman: The problem with a break out is remote participation, mgarrish and I won't be there, and are not available at all times

Susan Neuhaus: We will make a list and review next week
… Move on to bikeshed

name for scrolled comics rendition

<Shinya Takami> w3c/epub-specs#2791

Susan Neuhaus: what to really call the new property

Susan Neuhaus: I made a table for a quick vote
… everyone votes near 1st, 2nd, 3rd choice

Susan Neuhaus: is this feasible?
… there are a lot

Ivan Herman: Some have been thinned out

Hadrien Gardeur: roll, scroll, some others are popular

Brady Duga: It's too many

<Dale Rogers> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FgC98D6O7T_lW_eb541jOKoAxP5XsKLoqtB7eQV6Lfo/edit?tab=t.0

Hadrien Gardeur: Which list?

Brady Duga: The one in google docs

Ivan Herman: People are already voting in the doc

Susan Neuhaus: I don't like tiled
… A single tile is not complete

Brady Duga: I do not like scroll or scrolled, since this is where we started

@ack Hadrien Gardeur

Hadrien Gardeur: I am opposed to vertical in the name, since we may want direction eventually

Ivan Herman: Roll is emerging as the winner

Dale Rogers: there seems to be energy against scroll
… the DOM uses scroll for movement in the document
… so I think we should stay with it

Ivan Herman: Scroll completely misled me
… since we already use it, I am opposed

<Hadrien Gardeur> > A scroll is a long, narrow piece of paper or parchment that is written or printed on and then rolled up for storage. A roll is a similar type of document that is made by rolling up several sheets of paper or parchment together.

Susan Neuhaus: should we vote between tile and roll?

Ivan Herman: sure

<Daniel Kimberg> tiled actually has two -1s

<Hadrien Gardeur> > The main difference between a scroll and a roll is the number of sheets that are used. A scroll is typically a single sheet of paper or parchment that has been written or printed on and then rolled up, while a roll is made up of multiple sheets that are attached together and then rolled up.

can we get plus ones/minus ones for roll?

<Gautier Chomel> +1

<Ivan Herman> +1 for "roll"

<Hadrien Gardeur> +1

<Toshiaki Koike> +1

<Shinya Takami> Proposed: "roll" for rendition:layout for scrolled comics

<Ivan Herman> +1

<Wendy Reid> +1

<Brady Duga> +1

<Susan Neuhaus> +1

<Hadrien Gardeur> +1

<Charles LaPierre> +1

<Gregorio Pellegrino> +1

<Shinya Takami> +1

<Dale Rogers> +1

<Toshiaki Koike> +1

<George Kerscher> +1

<Ivan Herman> bikeshed?

<Gregorio Pellegrino> is it a dish?

RESOLUTION: "roll" for rendition:layout for scrolled comics

@ Ivan Herman

Ivan Herman: We have the term, does that mean the PR can be merged?

Hadrien Gardeur: No, a large portion of the discussion is images in spine

Ivan Herman: Leaving the PR open for months will be bad
… merging an incomplete PR is better than leaving it open with the document changing under it

Matt Garrish: In this case, some of the changes are useful even if we back it out
… but others would need to be pulled

Hadrien Gardeur: I can make the change, it is easy

Susan Neuhaus: and mgarrish will take a look to see if it should be merged?

Matt Garrish: Yeah, I have to look at it given my major PRs, it will need to be corrected to merge properly

Play order for FXL

w3c/epub-specs#2664 (comment)

Susan Neuhaus: There was misunderstanding on it last time
… George Kerscher, can you explain?

George Kerscher: We had a similar issue with DAISY 3 for determining order
… so there we added a sequence, so each item had a play order
… so it is designed to provide a linear order for fixed layout

Wendy Reid: We didn't understand where it would appear? Is it document level (each doc is ordered), or is it inside the document, so each item in document is ordered

Gregorio Pellegrino

George Kerscher: I didn't get into the details

Gregorio Pellegrino: I am not sure if this will work with current assistive technologies
… since it is already using the DOM order, and we won't be able to change that
… so it is interesting, but we need to make sure it can work natively on the web

Gautier Chomel: We have a reading order inside a page, we are good. But if my reading order goes across pages then we have a problem
… to do it today requires a bunch of tricks
… This never happens on a web page - reading over is never across resources
… so I think we should set this aside and consider a solution that handles cross resource

Matt Garrish: We already have flowto, so not sure we need something for AT
… but there is no "flowacross" where the reading order skips across pages
… it will be very hard to get AT to skip around resources

Hadrien Gardeur: I think the biggest problem is the content can be spread over multiple resources
… we have pages across spread, but it could be half a sentence in one spread, the other half in another
… I don't see how to solve this with html or aria
… We would need something like smil, or another custom navigation structure on top

Susan Neuhaus: So should we close this and open a new one?

Gautier Chomel: We already have several issues already about audio sync
… we have the same problem for TTS, FXL with AT, etc
… this becomes worse when we talk about [visual narratives]
… we could move this to a discussion, and not have an issue open to keep the issues tracker size down
… I think we have an FXL meta issue on this, maybe point to that?

Susan Neuhaus: So should we close the issue and move it to a discussion?

Ivan Herman: Discussion where?

Gautier Chomel: Maybe the discussion feature in github?
… I just prefer that or something like it to have a discussion open in an issue tracker that is never closed

Wendy Reid: We discussed discussions last week, maybe we can use this as a test case
… we have a lot of these, it would be good to try the feature out

Ivan Herman: to move ahead - A. close it. B. wendyreid or someone looks into the feature and set it up C. we use it for this case

Wendy Reid: We have the feature, nothing to turn on

Ivan Herman: gautierchomel says it isn't on

Wendy Reid: Oh, maybe I can see it because I am a maintainer
… I will make sure to turn it on

Ivan Herman: So after the minutes are up and the discussions are ready, we will close it with a pointer to the discussion

AVIF files in the package

<Shinya Takami> w3c/epub-specs#2794

w3c/epub-specs#2794

Hadrien Gardeur: A few years ago I added a similar issue about webp
… it is the fastest growing format
… widely used today
… images is a funny case, since we have a whitelist for them
… unlike other media types
… so it is a strong choice to add

Ivan Herman: We have at least two implementations at this point (Thorium and Mac's Books)

<Daniel Kimberg> not sure offhand

Ivan Herman: so this is probably just an editing issue

Shinya Takami: In Japan many RSes don't support even webp
… so I think it is good to add avif

Ivan Herman: Let's do a formal proposal

Proposed:Add AVIF to the EPUB package

<Susan Neuhaus> +1

Ivan Herman: and I am happy to do the PR

<Shinya Takami> +1

<Ivan Herman> +1

<Hadrien Gardeur> +1

<Toshiaki Koike> +1

<Brady Duga> +1

<Gautier Chomel> +1

<Dale Rogers> +1

<Wendy Reid> +1

<Masakazu Kitahara> +1

<Charles LaPierre> +1

RESOLUTION: Add AVIF to the EPUB package

Summary of resolutions

  1. "roll" for rendition:layout for scrolled comics
  2. Add AVIF to the EPUB package
Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 246 (Wed Oct 1 15:02:24 2025 UTC).