Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco

APA and PMWG Joint Meeting

wendyreid: Goal is a joint meeting with APA. Typically done at TPAC, but that had scheduling issues

gpellegrino: I have an agenda proposal, I would like extended desc to happen now for schedule reasons

matatk: We have discussed in TAG and APA, I have some ideas

Extended Descriptions

<AvneeshSingh> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/wiki/Standardizing-Extended-Descriptions:-User-Stories,-Testing-Results,-and-Current-Limitations/

gpellegrino: Brief intro - for descriptions that go beyond alt text (formula, etc)
… anyone can see them, not just for screen readers
… we are missing ways to control them
… there are a few ways to do it, but they all have issues in epub
… for instance summary details breaks with pagination
… aria details is more interesting, and works ok when it is all in the same file
… But we need something that puts the description in one file and the item it describes elsewhere
… but have a link between them
… We have footnote and endnote metadata for links
… 1. How to identify a link goes to an extended desc
… 2. how can programmatic relationships be maintained cross file
… 3. How can we know something is an extended desc when we open a file

matatk: We have some possible solutions, I will give an overview
… these come from APA, with some ideas from Jeffrey Yasskin (TAG)
… some sounds a little like the issue with long desc, and why it is now gone (misuse, no support)
… We need to be aware of those risks
… ARIA details is still very low support
… Details and summary come to mind at first, but may not be right
… Putting the metadata on the link breaks down on an inter doc link, but maybe `rel` is better for cross document
… that might preserve the data

<matatk> Patching in content - discussed as an enhancement of a Declarative Partial Updates CG: <https://github.com/WICG/declarative-partial-updates/blob/main/patching-explainer.md#potential-enhancement---patch-contents-from-url>

matatk: There is also a proposal to patch in content
… which might be interesting to lazy patch in content from other sources
… APA had the same concerns as reviewed here (misuse, support)
… We had a different way of viewing the problem. One problem with navigating away is coming back
… easy to do in JS, but is this a problem with the platform that you need to be able to come to where you were as a general problem for the web
… One last thing is to get ARIA and TAG feedback
… And keep APA up to date

AvneeshSingh: Thank you, good overview
… main problem is detecting the extended desc via machine
… We really need the semantics, not a specific mechanism for showing it

CharlesL: What is the APA view on extending DPUB ARIA roles for the extended description?

wendyreid: We still have the RS UA problem. Dynamic insertion of content doesn't really work in a RS due to pagination issues
… we have a similar issue with footnotes, we solve that with links and popups
… Goal for extended desc is to have a similar implementation
… i.e. popups

<Zakim> matatk, you wanted to talk about identifying the extended descriptions (Charles asked about extending DPUB roles)

wendyreid: today we have trouble with footnotes as there are multiple implementations

matatk: CharlesL, you suggested extending DPUB. Seems logical, and there is prior art
… but should discuss with ARIA if this can be a solution for a wider problem
… If you are sometimes talking same doc and sometime different, we should avoid two mechanisms
… So `rel` still sounds interesting
… regarding pagination, why not show as popup? But how do I know this is an extended desc to show in the popup
… The document you have covers a lot of use cases, but we might want some that are from outside epub to make sure we have a general solution

mgarrish: That is the concern. And long desc has a lot of baggage, so we would like to avoid that
… and we do want something that is more broadly applicable
… This will probably take more discussion/input and why we are socializing it now
… Is there a broader audience for this?

AvneeshSingh: Extended desc can have broader appeal
… In epub, for footnote we have aria role on link, and container has its own role
… The container role might have an aria role, not dpub:aria, which makes it useful across the web
… The other thing to highlight - whenever we discuss this, we are warned away from the long desc debate
… We don't want long desc, we just want semantics
… how can we avoid that comparison?

<SueNeu> ack: matalk

matatk: I'll have a rough go about differentiating from long desc
… the point you make about identifying content that is currently visible is important
… it seems like the big issue with long desc was that it wasn't rendered
… So making that clear should help. And socializing this is very important to get all feedback.
… Might be a harder sell in the epub sense, since it is in a different file
… So there really should be an affordance for all users that this is available
… So my question is, what should be next steps?
… Maybe another call with APA?

janina: In terms of selling programmatic access (the idea of that), it might be useful. If we don't make it discoverable then perhaps it was underspecified. That might be a way to sell it

George: So the link is always visible. On the web details is great, but has trouble in EPUB
… in either case, it is always visible to all users, but we need to be clear that the semantics are important and need to be available
… the understanding that extended desc is there on the link and target is important

AvneeshSingh: Next steps - we need to do one more pass on the document. Need to clarify we are looking for semantics
… we will also leverage html to make things programmatically available as part of sales pitch

<CharlesL> +1 for a meeting with APA after TPAC.

AvneeshSingh: Then maybe some of us can join an APA call after TPAC
… Is a wiki page ok, or do we need to be more formal

JenStrickland: I see how the semantics is a lovely pairing, but it doesn't work well with epub
… Does epub ever have a popup? It seems like the semantics needs to be clarified for that

<matatk> Next steps: turn the wiki page into an Explainer (<https://www.w3.org/TR/explainer-explainer/>) or write one as a markdown file in revision control.

<JenStrickland> The HTML popover API is the thing I was thinking of.

matatk: The proposed next step (an explainer) is a good way to list all the rejected approaches (better than a spec)
… so using an explainer format will help with review since they are familiar with the format
… and I would be willing to help review
… then TAG could give some good feedback

Updates from APA

matatk: First pronunciation

<matatk> https://www.w3.org/WAI/about/groups/task-forces/spoken-presentation/

matatk: Need to make sure TTS will properly pronounce things
… lots of use cases are around education
… we have explored some tech approaches
… typically this has leaned on SSML, etc and we haven't had much success
… there has also been a lot of discussion around CSS speech, some of that might be easier to implement
… but we are really diving into real use cases first
… Some tech answers, there may be some low hanging fruit in AT [I think I missed a detail here]
… At some point we will share the use cases to get feedback

Hadrien: Pronunciation has a lot of solutions, but none are implemented
… another issue is SSML is just really poorly implemented
… so even if we had the pronunciation, we have no way to use it
… so we have a risk of coming to an unimplemented solution

<Hadrien> https://kb.daisy.org/publishing/docs/text-to-speech/index.html

<SueNeu> duga: on a previous project we worked on tts for audio book content. We gave up on

<SueNeu> …anyway for the the author to provide pronunciation except having the author provide us with a sound file

<SueNeu> …of them pronouncing it

mgarrish: this is a good time to bring it up, big problem in need of solution

SueNeu: I do a lot of mixed language books, specifying language causes a voice change (jarring)
… so I hope bilingual is on the list

shiestyle: Japanese text has ruby for pronunciation, but is also used for other things
… we don't have a spec for which should be pronounced
… sometimes both, sometimes base, sometimes ruby

symbols

matatk: Next, symbols. You may have seen them as AAC symbols
… often used to help understand text
… There is also Bliss symbolic languages with is entirely symbolic

<matatk> https://www.w3.org/WAI/about/groups/task-forces/adapt/

matatk: there is a dictionary, which is constantly changing (it's a language)
… You can't just add to web pages as there a number of symbols
… we are working on a way to specify the symbols, then drop in the user preferred symbol set
… We are currently looking at ruby to implement this, though that is a little controversial
… main question is, is ruby supported in EPUB?

<SueNeu> duga: There is ruby support in reading systems that support asian languages

George: Is there a symbol for extended desc?
… seems perfectly logical. Publishers want a visual element for an extended desc

shiestyle: RS in Japan all support ruby, as do major players launched in Japan

janina: I am willing to bet that extended desc will have such a symbol, assuming we get AAC fully supported