Meeting minutes
Wendy Reid: As we are going through issues we see there are a bunch in propose closing
Propose Closing - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20label%3Apropose-closing
Wendy Reid: so we would like to clean those up
… we will work through from oldest to newest
w3c/epub-specs#2691
Wendy Reid: first is extended description in EPUB 3, from Gregorio Pellegrino
… there are some suggestions to ARIA, but I don't see any changes we need in epub 3
… where are we?
Ivan Herman: There were 2 choices
… the epub reading systems tag is misleading, it is a11y
… techniques
… And that would unblock CR
… ARIA doesn't depend on us, we can just suggest to them
… I propose to remove the epub tags and mark it deferred and we are done
Matt Garrish: It is a proposal to ATA so it doesn't really fit
… we have a doc with the proposal, and we have identified the issues, but we don't know where it will go
… I don't know if we need to defer, since we have no idea when we will talk to APA
… so just remove the tags
Wendy Reid: We will probably meet before tpac like we did last year
… I am happy to remove the extra spec tags, and maybe in the future move this to them
w3c/epub-specs#2716
Wendy Reid: next is one about content requirements for HTML
Brady Duga: I can't see any reason to keep it open
w3c/epub-specs#2719
Wendy Reid: Great! Next is ARIA structural semantics
… we had some caution in 3.4, is it already addressed?
Matt Garrish: This is a request to go over html elements with semantics, but this seems outside our scope
… there isn't a clear request here
… But how ARIA applies to HTML doesn't make sense for EPUB. There are better resources available
… so there isn't much we can do
sueneu2: This is a bigger question. The poster is frustrated with how the spec relates to topology
… This is a bigger question about how we inform the community about what they should do
Wendy Reid: In this case it is hard, since we don't control the technologies in question
<Gregorio Pellegrino> +1 to Matt
Matt Garrish: This really belongs to ARIA and HTML, it isn't our domain to get in here. It is up to HTML
… I don't see it fitting in here. Entirely outside our domain.
… and ARIA and HTML folks will gety annoyed with us
Dale Rogers: It is not part of the spec, but referring them to an explainer? It is like a puzzle and just tell them how it works
… Maybe just point at an explainer or note to help people
sueneu2: Thinking on the kindest and most helpful thing, is it just to close, or is it to add the resources Matt mentioned and leave it open for while?
George Kerscher: I say we add the DAISY KB links and close it
Matt Garrish: Where are we putting them?
George Kerscher: Just the bug
w3c/epub-specs#2765
Wendy Reid: From Gautier Chomel_ about moving annotations issues
… is this done?
Gautier Chomel_: Not completely
… some issues are still in the CG. we just need someone with permissions to do it
… there is a link to the old list in the issue
… for all of them, we need to transfer them
Ivan Herman: This should have been done a year ago, but doing it right now makes me uneasy
… we should review those to see if they still apply
Gautier Chomel_: Mostly they are addressed, but I would like to have everything in the same place
… since it is where the annotation discussion is happening
… Today to see what we have fixed I need to keep 2 repos open, I would prefer even the closed ones to get moved
Ivan Herman: I don't seem to have the permissions on the CG side, and you don't have the rights on the spec side
… I will give you rights on the spec side so you can do it
Ivan Herman: But this is less urgent since it isn't under CR at the moment
sueneu2: Once it is in the repo, should we assign them to someone to make sure they are addressed? Some process
Ivan Herman: I think Gautier Chomel_ should move them and review them
Wendy Reid" Ok, Gautier Chomel_?
Gautier Chomel_: yes
Wendy Reid: And when you are done with that, please close this issue
w3c/epub-specs#2946
Ivan Herman: I don't understand. In the image it shows blue text on black, but when I tested it it seems fine
… I think we can just close it
w3c/epub-specs#3000
Ivan Herman: Who is responsible for what? That is the question here
… I put in the proposal to close it, but no one has agreed
<Hadrien Gardeur> +1 for closing
<Shinya Takami> +1
<sueneu2> +1 for closing
Ivan Herman: Ok, I will close it
… should we take up 2719 now or later?
… if later I will remove the epub spec tag
Matt Garrish: I am just writing some stuff up for it. It will be closed in about 10 minutes
Annotations
Wendy Reid: We have open issues and PRs
… is there anything we wanted to discuss
… ?
<Hadrien Gardeur> Laurent is currently in Malaysia, won't be back before July 10th
Annotation order - w3c/epub-specs#3030
Wendy Reid: Laurent opened an interesting issues
… this is about order of annotations
Wendy Reid: Why can't we have access to the spine?
Hadrien Gardeur: Usually to order, you need something to order on (percentage, page number, etc)
… also you may have lost access to the content but still have the annotations
… also could have services that deal only with the annotations
Ivan Herman: I believe it is good to have
… we could just make the set a list and sort it
… but we should probably add metadata to say what the order is
… I might want to use size, or creation date, etc
… we can add a property and some reasonable values for it
Hadrien Gardeur: So I don't think that is how we should do it
… We need to give the software the ability to order as it wants
… There should be data in the annotations to sort it how it sees fit
… so we need this information on a per annotation basis
Wendy Reid: It is an important feature
… I do think it is a new field like playorder
<Hadrien Gardeur> FYI this is how we'll handle this in OPDS: https://
Wendy Reid: we need some way to communicate this
Brady Duga: Yes, if only we had some sort of a locator with ordering built into it (hahaha) (CFI)
… they are inherently sortable without the original source
… it's hard with a locator, it's so complex people don't implement
… if we stick ordering into locators, we need to use CFI
… the easier solution is playorder or whatever we call it
… the problem is that they have orders that can be determined, we are over-constrained
… knowing which annotation is which, the playorder could just be a hint, it might be wrong
… once you put the annotations into the book
George Kerscher: Lars reminded me he has implemented CFI as open source
… just advertising that here
Ivan Herman: I was going to say the same thing
… if it was added we would have to porperly spec it
… but I don't know where this idea of adding a property comes from
… if I import it is good information to know that it is ordered and how
Wendy Reid: We need some sort of information about the location, since just knowing the file isn't enough to know where the annotation is
… e.g. 3 annotations in chapter 3 we won't know the order
… we would need a more precise locator
Hadrien Gardeur: Some locators are sortable. There are several in PDF.
… in pre-paginated if you have the index and the total number you can sort
… that was category 1
… category 2 is roll publications, you calculate the height of a publication by the tile height and number of tiles, and determine from there
… in epub we calculate positions
… we calculalte the total number of positions, and we know the current position
… so we know the overall location
… cfi wouldn't help with roll puibs
Brady Duga: We did discuss this at some point, the conclusion was, sometimes you won't know the ordering of annotations, you may be able to guess
… you have to go through where in the HTML these are pointing to and sort
… that may not be done until the chapter is opened
… you'll have a rough sort by file referenced, people might be ok with that
… "lazy" evauliation of resources
Ivan Herman: I am now horrified. Because the order of html and human perception may not be the same
… They could be entirely different
<Hadrien Gardeur> +1 for what Ivan Herman just said, that's why it's calculated at rendering time in Readium
Ivan Herman: so I think we should keep away from it for now
Dale Rogers: From web design, I know the DOM has a purpose. Everything is in it's own order. But if we annotate something in the DOM, does the order of the document determine the location, or do we have a seperate positioning for the annotation?
… So CSS can change the apparent location of something
… it sounds like a complicated can of worms
Ivan Herman: Yes, things can be moved via CSS, so the perception order can very different
Hadrien Gardeur: The question is how deep do you want to go
… I have to discuss with reading systems who are using pseudo-CFI, or XPointer, etc
… So this is really just contextual information, but you can't use it to actually place the annotations
… if we want to go deeper we will be here for 5 years
Shinya Takami: We can push to RS
… in the list of annotations to sort by date is easy for RS
… If RS want to sort by location, since it is hard to maintain, should be up to RS implementations
Wendy Reid: I understand the technical challenge, but we have to consider the user need
… Even just to get pretty close
… The problem disappears with the book content
<Gregorio Pellegrino> For accessibility we have A reading order...
George Kerscher: We have the a11y requirement to maintain a reading order
… I realize CSS allows the order to change, but I hope we have something we can rely on
… I think on export the RS should export the reading order
… The RS already needs to maintain this
Dale Rogers: This seems to be on the RS side
… We have talked about how authors style things and the RS just tosses it
… so the order could just be the html reading order
… so maybe we just say it is reading order and leave it up to the RS to figure it out
Wendy Reid: We can't generate an annotation without the book source
… so we have the data at time of creation what the order is