Meeting minutes
Carsten_Stöcker: Hi Eva.
Eva_Blomqvist: Hi. …
Carsten_Stöcker: How's life?
Eva_Blomqvist: I'm in a bar.
Carsten_Stöcker: And…
<Fireflies.ai_Notetaker_Miguel> Miguel Ángel invited Fireflies.ai here to record & take notes. By continuing, you agree to https://
Eva_Blomqvist: That's good.
Carsten_Stöcker: a B. Yeah. No worries.
Eva_Blomqvist: Yeah, I'm in Warso for cost action meeting. And the meeting ended, so I'm in a bar now to so hopefully or rather if there's a lot of background noise, why. No, in Poland.
Carsten_Stöcker: No worries. In which country are you in? Sweden or where are you? In Poland. Very Then let's see who's joining. Just the two of us plus a noteaker.
Eva_Blomqvist: Elite crowd.
Carsten_Stöcker: Let's see a cost action meeting. are you budget planning or what is cost action meeting?
Eva_Blomqvist: It's this European project which is a networking project.
Carsten_Stöcker: Okay.
Eva_Blomqvist: So this is on knowledge graphs and LLMs and…
Ivan_Herman: Hello.
Eva_Blomqvist: and the interaction between those.
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah.
Eva_Blomqvist: Yes. Yeah,
Carsten_Stöcker: Very nice. so we are blending the AI with trust infrastructure. Maybe that's also something if we might want to pick up…
Ingo_Wolf: Hello.
Carsten_Stöcker: because we think that the EOS 2.0 and the trust infrastructure is a pretty interesting topic to combine it with for regulated industries but it's another topic. an. Hi Ingram. Cool. But I guess we still wait with introduction and… Carsten Stöcker:
Eva_Blomqvist: I was telling Ken I'm in a bar so…
Eva_Blomqvist: if there's a lot of background noise it's
Carsten_Stöcker: with a bit of the planning,…
Working Group Membership Rules
Carsten_Stöcker: maybe some housekeeping. even who Can anybody join or is it restricted W3C member or contributors or distinguished experts? So how does work because a lot of people want to join and I don't know about the rules here.
Ivan_Herman: The rules are that this is part of a working group and…
Ivan_Herman: that means only working group members can join.
Carsten_Stöcker: Okay. Yeah.
Ivan_Herman: There is no tool that would prevent somebody to join to be honest. It's a little bit the responsibility of the chair to control that.
Carsten_Stöcker: Okay.
Ivan_Herman: And of course for whatever reason we have the possibility to invite someone to a given call. So it's not like the brick wall around it.
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah. Yeah.
Ivan_Herman: But this is the rule.
Carsten_Stöcker: Good to understand…
Carsten_Stöcker: because I thought everyone can join but this makes it simpler because a lot of people may be interested and then here we have 20 people and nothing works. Yeah. yes.
Ivan_Herman: Yeah. and…
Intellectual Property Rights Considerations
Ivan_Herman: the other post problem is that and that's one of the reasons why we have these kind of rules is IPR protection.
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah. Yeah. We need to sort this out. So Rio mentioned we have to do APR wavers because we working on vocabul. I don't know even there's much IP in vocabulary…
Carsten_Stöcker: but we are happy to sign any waver that's required.
Ivan_Herman: for vocabulary the whole IPR question is I would say obvious…
Ivan_Herman: but the rules are not made for the vocabularies only…
Carsten_Stöcker: …
Carsten_Stöcker: we wave it and it's fine.
Ivan_Herman: but we don't have to do anything really when we publish a first public working draft then there is an automatic mechanism that will contact all members of the group to say if they are on something they have to do something etc.
Carsten_Stöcker: Okay.
Ivan_Herman: So that's sort of automatic.
Carsten_Stöcker: Yep. Yeah.
Ivan_Herman: But it happens but the really reason is that if you are on the call then you are in a sort of a safe environment in this respect in a legal and IPR situation and that's what really counts and that's why it's there. No that's about…
Carsten_Stöcker: And how does a company get the working member?
Carsten_Stöcker: For example, Bunes and Saga would like to join W3C and then they can say, "Hey, I would like to be part of the VC working group." And then they can join us or how does it work?
Ivan_Herman: what you did what you just said.
Carsten_Stöcker: Okay, cool.
Ivan_Herman: So the formally what happens is that when you become a member Carson you are not yet a member by the way we are breaking the rules for today you have I have no idea don't even ask I mean I am not involved with that the only problem is that there is now a two days meeting of the many large part of the team in China right now and…
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah, I don't know what's the problem is because I bought Emma. Okay.
Ivan_Herman: so these days nothing will I know that the rules we have is that the membership is officially put in our system when the payment is
Carsten_Stöcker: No, because I signed the membership thing two times. I don't know why two times, and I didn't see an invoice. Maybe someone needs to send an invoice and we need to pay, but I haven't seen it. I'm follow up. No. …
Ivan_Herman: done and what I presume is that the payment has not been done but I don't know what and how and where you have to go to Emma you were in contact with Emma and…
Carsten_Stöcker: I even didn't see an invoice, but this doesn't mean anything. We need to find out. Yes, that's Yeah.
Ivan_Herman: she is the one who do that was a separate thing I just wanted to make it sure …
Carsten_Stöcker: No, I just
Ivan_Herman: what was I beginning to say I'm too old to remember everything. the mechanism for joining. So once you are a member then you will have to nominate an advisory committee member who represents the institution. the instit member has to say that the company joins the working group, as an institution and…
Ivan_Herman: then the AC also nominates persons who are employees or associates or whatever to the institution and…
Carsten_Stöcker: H. Okay.
Ivan_Herman: that person is then joined and added for the time being for a specific task force. So this one to join the task force you have to send me an email with your email address. the system team is working on putting a simple join button for members so that you can do it yourself. But for the time being, I act as a button.
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah. But let's see. I think Ingo maybe we are complete now. We should do an introduction. Yeah. Not sure if we should do it now or not. We're complete.
Ivan_Herman: Yeah I mean Caroline said that she is not available today and film late.
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah, I don't know…
Ivan_Herman: I don't know whether you guys expect anybody else. Susanna she is an invited expert Ava is also an invited expert.
Carsten_Stöcker: because the Z is also not WC member. I don't know how it works.
Ingo_Wolf: Okay.
Carsten_Stöcker: Okay, then it works. Yeah. Yeah.
Ivan_Herman: So that's okay.
Carsten_Stöcker: Maybe you can yeah…
Carsten Stöcker Introduction and Company Focus
Carsten_Stöcker: then just do an introduction because even I think we have met but you don't know English should we do quick introduction and me from okay maybe I start. So my name is caster founder of atity we have worked with rebooting web of trust maybe for seven years or six years.
Ivan_Herman: Sir, we
Carsten_Stöcker: So I know a lot of people Manus Bourne yourself then whatever Brent Sunund I think I know him from the WCC did working group and that's bit and at we do two things we do legal person identity and digital product passport and there's convergence between legal person identity business wallets and digital product passports and it's also worth to say in Europe there's a lot of experimentation
Carsten_Stöcker: because Europe decided that these are the core pillars of any digital infrastructure for business to government and B2B the business wallets and the DPPs for that reason there's insane amount of standardization going on and whatever in terms of both things the semantics are key components we think it needs to be pushed to W3C to have more an international view not European view…
Ivan_Herman: Mhm.
Carsten_Stöcker: but what's also interesting that people started to blend it with other W3C standards So of course the verifiable credential standards but also decad and ODIL. Yeah. So there's a lot of work especially for credentials and ODL to blend this together and I have not seen it before but the industry here in Europe you already using this in production ODL and WCC credentials with the wallets but of course they have done it on their own.
Carsten_Stöcker: there's no W3C kind of whatever transfer into W3C and we to work on the business models. Caroline will more work on the DPPS from the semantic perspective as a company. We also work on the DPSPs but Caroline is leading this and we are also working with European business registries the Norwegian the Dutch the French and…
Ingo_Wolf: French.
Carsten_Stöcker: some other Swedish and so we're working with them and for us it's really important that we first think about inheriting the legal proof of existence of a company from a business register in a wallet so can be from a government registry but can also be from a GLY registry. Then to this is what for us it's a secondary identifier.
Carsten_Stöcker: The primary is always derived from a legal proof of existence. But that's just not only my terminology. But from whatever industry domain registries, we also can inherit something. But that's the idea to focus on the master data first and then of course this could be extended to all kind of other stuff. And from our perspective is also that anti-money laundering is the platinum reference standards for authent for checking master data. So we have done a lot of work in Europe kind of describing company company master data to fulfill anti-moneyaundering requirements and this is also kind of universally globally.
Carsten_Stöcker: Of course in Europe maybe you go deeper than in Hong Kong or whatever but in principle this is kind of universally and for that reason we think it's a good start and at some point in time there will be the intersections of DPSPs and…
Carsten_Stöcker: business wallets but that's something for later to put some dedicated work in this working group on this. And Ingo do you want to proceed?
Ingo Wolf Introduction and Background
Ingo_Wolf: Yeah, sure.
Ingo_Wolf: Maybe first to my person. So, Engle Wolf is my name. I am head of engineering at Spherity since April of last year. before I have 25 years of professional experience in other companies 12 years before I was working for the German health sector public health services. So we set up an open ID federation basically for all the insurance company offering services to German citizens and before that I was 13 years at research and development of Deutsche Telecom. at that time I participated also in standardization activities in the multimedia sector.
Ingo_Wolf: So I was part of the moving pictures experts group at ISO standardization for eight years working mainly on multimedia metadata. So I had some exposure to digital management rights expression languages. At that time there was also the competition between ODRL and rights expression language from content guard which made the race at that point in time. so yeah I'm quite happy that ODRL is picked up now as an more open alternative to this and I studied electrotechnical engineering at technical university of Berlin and graduated in 2000.
Ivan_Herman: Okay. Eva
Ingo_Wolf: So that's a quick summary of mine. feel free to ask any further questions.
Eva Blomqvist Introduction and Project Experience
Eva_Blomqvist: So Blumquist, professor of computer science at Lin Shopping University in Sweden. worked with ontology applications and so forth for past 25 years. And about five six years ago some companies came to us and said look this whole thing with circular economy and product passports we need ontologies here.
Eva_Blomqvist: So I'm not originally an expert in that field but since then I've coordinated one European project on the topic and we have several national projects as well on DPSPs where of course standardization is a big part and we developed together with people from SIPAS I wasn't involved in Silas myself but together with people from there we developed some initial drafts for DPP ontologies and then at some point now Caroline got me on the hook and said you need to be involved here and dragged me into this basically and hopefully my experience from the past five years can contribute something to these discussions. I mean I really think that it's very important to have some standardization.
Eva_Blomqvist: We see it in Sweden a lot that there are so many things popping up and everyone has their own solution and so forth. So it's really urgent things to be discussed I think. So I'm happy to be here contributing whatever I can. Then of course I'm sort of doing this in my spare time as I think I said in the general meeting that don't have a lot of time…
Eva_Blomqvist: but I will try to contribute as much as I can. Yes. No.
Carsten_Stöcker: And if…
Carsten_Stöcker: are you so Caroline was talking about she's hiring an ontology team. are you leading this team? Are you supporting it? Yeah. Okay.
Eva_Blomqvist: I mean I can morally support but no I'm not concretely involved in that.
Eva_Blomqvist: Yes, she told me something like this as well but I don't know any details of that.
Carsten_Stöcker: Okay, cool.
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah, but I think it goes beyond WC, but we're working with a lot of people in Sweden and they are also interested in the same stuff. Maybe we can kind of convince them to be WC members such as Box. So, the Swedish company registry,…
Eva_Blomqvist: Yep, definitely.
Carsten_Stöcker: but it's also something maybe to follow up. cool. Mhm.
Ivan Herman Introduction and W3C Role
Ivan_Herman: Okay, I guess…
Ivan_Herman: then I am the last one. So my name is Ivan Herman. and I am originally a mathematician. So I got my university degree at the University of Purapest in Hary. long time ago in the 70s but then I turned into computer science. I worked in research in Hungary for a few years and then I left the country for reasons that we can imagine. I spent several years in Munich in a software house. Then I ended up in Amsterdam where I spent 30 odd years.
Ivan_Herman: I was a researcher at the research institute in Amsterdam computer science and then in 2001 I joined the W3C team remaining in the Netherlands but I joined the W3C team for a first few years I was doing more in the communication area not in the technical part but then in 200 seven I guess I took over and I was the activity lead as we called it back then for semantic web. So I was the one who coordinated all the work done about RDF and owl and shako and god knows what else including the RL by the way at the time.
Ivan_Herman: Then in the 2010 decade I also took up something else which is digital publishing.
Ivan_Herman: So I am sort of dividing up my time between verify your credentials and EUB. I am that's…
Carsten_Stöcker: What is this?
Carsten_Stöcker: What is EUP?
Ingo_Wolf: the e standardized ebook format. Yeah.
Ivan_Herman: if you read a digital book let's say in Apple or Kindle or whatever and the format is EOP and it's ebook format and that's something that is now a WBC standard I am also active in that area and co-editor of the standard itself by now I am formally retired So I moved to France and I am in the house of France now and I am an emiritis member of the team as they call it. which is not something which is relevant to you because I take verify credential and ep side by side.
Carsten_Stöcker: Great.
Ivan_Herman: That's all I do. All the administrative things at W3C I keep away from it and I can because I'm an ameritus. So that's the advantage. so I have two roles in a way on the one hand I am the staff contact so I work strong very closely with the two chairs on managing the group but they are really the managers I'm more the active problem solver if we have to create a repository for our work or whatever and I know also
Ivan_Herman: the W3C process. So this is one of my main roles but I take part in the technical work as well. So I am editor of the BCDM because I contributed a lot because I have my past in semantic web. So I am the guardian of link data principles and technology in the group. I'm not the only one but I am one of the guardians which of course is relevant for this task force as well because now you said one thing Carson that companies use VCDM and…
Carsten_Stöcker: Absolutely. Yeah.
Ivan_Herman: and ODRL together without getting to W3C but they have absolutely the right to do So there is you said that as…
Carsten_Stöcker: I know not against it.
Ivan_Herman: if it was a mistake. It is not an even I would rather say that we don't have anything to do except that you probably hit this problem that there is VCDM as we use it in JSON LD and there
Carsten_Stöcker: No, no, no, no. I think there's some work to be done maybe that you guys are not aware and I think there's a gap to close the experience here to link it to what you guys are doing and then to build upon this together. This was my point.
Ivan_Herman: is a VCBM thing that IETF is developing who are keeping away from JSON and…
Carsten_Stöcker: Mhm.
Ivan_Herman: one of the argument that we always say which I believe is true so it's not just an argument in the air is that the VCDM of W3C being in JSON LD has the story of extension built in and has a story of extension distributed wise so you don't have to register an extension anywhere.
Ivan_Herman: You just use another vocabulary together with what's there. You add the context f to the RL and that's all you have to do.
Carsten_Stöcker: Can I show you something?
Ivan_Herman: So if that's what they do absolutely go on you can share some I guess.
Carsten_Stöcker: Do you mind if I show you something? Because I'm very very like a lot. Do you mind if I show you the ODL piece? Yeah.
Carsten_Stöcker: So this is what we are doing here in maybe you see it now it's German but anyway in the end it's no…
Ivan_Herman: No I understand German not
Carsten_Stöcker: and if I maybe can also speak some German so this is in English and this is how policy is being defined yeah and here is a policy to access smart meter reading policy and…
Ivan_Herman: Yeah, that's all.
Carsten_Stöcker: then they said hey there's permissions and this is how they describe their policy yeah and here's the end and what's really really cool and no one has solved this is okay you can have a business identity and some business identity credentials but here in the energy sector they go beyond they have market role credentials yeah okay hey market role credential yeah it's not a big thing you can do this technology but the big thing here is there's a full market role governance registry
Carsten_Stöcker: the market roles are being monitored in the energy sector and if a company is then kind of there changes to the market roles then the market role is being revoked and this is what we like a lot the combination of wallets vifable credentials and JSON ID the order and the market role governance and…
Ingo_Wolf: Jesus.
Carsten_Stöcker: that's because the governance part is also very tough the market role governance and this is something that's kind of being worked on in the energy this sector here.
Ivan_Herman: Right. …
Ivan_Herman: but then again I mean the fact that this is done is exactly why we use JSON LD.
Carsten_Stöcker: Yes. And why we standardize it. Yeah. And I think but what we would like to do in the business vocabulary to also talk a bit about market roles. Yeah. That there is some sort of market role vocabulary very simple one. Yeah.
Ivan_Herman: Yeah. I have no idea about the details of market role and…
Carsten_Stöcker: It is no voice.
Ivan_Herman: all these things. So just to be clear I don't come here with the knowledge of how should I say the area. so I cannot participate in any discussion about that but I can always shout if something is wrong in terms of JSON or in a vocabulary structure in general and…
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah. Excellent.
Ivan_Herman: I will always shout if things become too complicated…
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah. yes.
Ivan_Herman: because ODRL is quite a large vocabulary and I don't know whether we want to use everything or whether it's worth having the whole thing. So it's one of the balance act to find with any vocabulary to see expressive enough…
Carsten_Stöcker: No, it's now we have the same problem with the business wallet vocabulary when we look into AML…
Ivan_Herman: but not too expressive simple enough but not too simplistic etc.
Carsten_Stöcker: then it's a lot of vocabulary company structures ultimate beneficial owners legal representatives parent child relationships and all of this but that's what we are working on maybe have to reduce it But at least that's what we're working on our side. And it's very important because we have to beat the S The SD Jot people, they're really pushing hard. They're really struggling to put the identity card in SDJVC or an SDJ on their smartphone wallets and they try to push that technology to business wallets.
Carsten_Stöcker: But business wallets is semantically rich and the smartphone wallet people are already struggling with 10 attributes in an identity card and for that reason this is also from our ecosystem perspective very important that the work being done now on WCC because the industry has semantic rich data and they're using all the WC credentials and then other people are trying kind of to put blockers and to push the SD jots and that's also bit why we think the WCC has a lot of visibility
Carsten_Stöcker: It makes sense to standardize it.
Ivan_Herman: That's unfortunately the ugly story…
Ivan_Herman: which we have to deal with this whole ST jot versus and actually ST Jot SD Jot is not the verify credential pariet…
Carsten_Stöcker: Nice to see.
Ivan_Herman: because we can use SD jot as so it's not necessary to move to their stuff…
Carsten_Stöcker: Mhm. No.
Ivan_Herman: but let's not go there it's a sad story but that happens can we see some practicalities I mean I know we are only four of us and I hope at least that the task force will become bigger than that yeah 90% I sent you a mayor Carson I believe…
Carsten_Stöcker: Yes. The question is how aggressively should we recruit people? Yeah.
Carsten_Stöcker: Mhm. No. Mhm.
Ivan_Herman: where I listed the members who are now participating in the task force as far as I'm concerned. The only addition since then is Caroline because Caroline came in through the invited expert mechanism and she has joined the working group two hours ago. so he's also on the list now. But we have to have these people if possible actively on these calls because otherwise it will not work.
Ivan_Herman: The practicalities that we still have to agree upon is first of all I presume the goal is to develop two documents right or two vocabularies I don't know how documents right now we at W3C usually work and…
Carsten_Stöcker: Mhm.
Ivan_Herman: this working group exclusively works on GitHub So we will have to set up repositories or repository for this task force which I have to do because it has to have some additional things added to it which links it to the rest of the W3C infrastructure. So first of all we have to agree whether we want two repositories for the two documents or we want to have one docntary one repository for the task force for two documents. it both are possible. it's just up to you to decide that not at this very moment.
Ivan_Herman: I mean I just listing the things on which we have to start with the other that's fine.
Carsten_Stöcker: What?
Carsten_Stöcker: What do you think?
Ingo_Wolf: I think…
Ingo_Wolf: since we are the same group of people accessing that repository, I think one might be enough to manage and have the two documents inside the same repository. I mean the work
Ivan_Herman: That's workable. There are two big camps. The v the rest of verify the credentials groups group usually uses one repository per document and therefore we have something like 15 different repository which is a bit too much for my taste but that's me on the other hand the epub working group has one repository for something like 12 documents so both of them are viable whatever you feel comfortable with that's the only criteria to The other thing is that there might be common CSS files or…
Carsten_Stöcker: Maybe even we start with one because what Ingu said it's kind of simpler and also that people are doing DPP and business wallets at the same time and maybe then it's even more simpler. Yeah. Yeah.
Ivan_Herman: whatever other tools that you want to share between the two. So that makes a lot of sense. So you will have to decide for a name and I will create a repository. again not at this very moment but at some point the other thing is that the final documents have to be in HTML as you know I don't know whether the current starting documentation that you have is in HTML or…
Ivan_Herman: It is okay then that makes it easier and there is a tool which is called respspec we'll put on where is the chat here there is thing…
Ingo_Wolf: It is.
Ivan_Herman: which says …
Ingo_Wolf: Yeah, we already worked with this and…
Ingo_Wolf: I can share you a link from the European business wallet consortium where you can see a version 0.1 where we use that respect tool already.
<Ivan_Herman> respec.org
Ingo_Wolf: So we tried to be in the style also from the trading side…
<Ingo_Wolf> European Business Wallet Vocabulary v0.1
Ivan_Herman: Wonderful.
Ingo_Wolf: what you use already this is a European business wallet vocabulary for the other we also started just a moment I have to find the URL…
Ivan_Herman: That's wonderful. And that's for which one of the EBM And the other
Ingo_Wolf: but I think I have it just a moment. Yes. this is our current work on the battery path ontology. just a moment.
Ingo_Wolf: So it's dedicated to a certain type of DPPS in this case for batteries but we can use it as a starting point and…
<Ingo_Wolf> Battery Pass v0.2
Ivan_Herman: Okay, that's wonder that's wonderful.
Ingo_Wolf: then generalize with Caroline or
Carsten_Stöcker: Oops.
Ivan_Herman: So what I would do is I create a repository with two folders, one for docu document A and one for document B and then you will populate it yourself then. But that's wonderful. one thing that I see right away as a minor problem which we have to be careful about for the time being it's perfect but when it goes to an official WCC recommendation all editors unfortunately must be official part of the working group.
Ingo_Wolf: Mhm. would be very nice.
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah, bonus and…
Ivan_Herman: So I don't know I see okay you are on the way so that's no problem. for the okay so that's something that you have to be careful about so the way I don't know…
Carsten_Stöcker: tiger as Bonus size also way and I'm reaching out to the other business registries in terms of WCC membership. Yeah. Yes. Yes.
Ivan_Herman: how familiar you are with the way the documents evolve from this point to a recommendation I mean I can make a kind of a quick run through the process.
Ingo_Wolf: Yes, I mean we did not yet practice it.
Ivan_Herman: Okay, then let's do that.
Ingo_Wolf: Of course, you can read a few things on W3C, but
Ivan_Herman: No, but reading let me then do that and interrupt me if there is a problem. So which let's say the first document we take at a start we will have to publish something which is called the first public working draft. So that's after we have converted into W3C format and after the editors have been sorted out the list of editors can change while the develop is working. so if there is only one editor at the beginning who is officially part of the working group, that's no all of them cannot stay there. so by doing a first public working draft, it becomes an official W3C document.
Ivan_Herman: Once it's published, that's when actually this IPR mechanism kicks in and a mail is sent to the whole working group to say are you okay with that IPR wise there is a formal vote to be done for the working group to publish it as a FPWD you don't want to know the details now and the mechanism by which we publish it requires some administ ministration which is essentially The only job that you will have is that the document has to abide to a certain set of rules. most of the rules are taken care of by respect. That's the good thing about it. But it has to be valid HTML etc.
Ivan_Herman: And because W3C is very keen on that there is a link checker and every link which is in the document must be valid link.
Ingo_Wolf: Perfect.
Ivan_Herman: So we hate 404s. so much that it is not accepted for publication with 404. what once it is a first public working draft I will install some additional magic tools. that means that from that point on every time you make a merge of this for the draft it will be automatically republished on W3C space. So you will have a stable URL which will always reflect the latest version of the document.
Ivan_Herman: So in a sense the GitHub repositories file is essentially automatically the latest working draft and that means we can cycle with that it's easy I don't have to do anything it's just automatically done by the tool it's a GitHub workflow YAML file which does that okay fast forward we find that everything is done everything is perfect then we request the publication of what is called a candidate recommendation that's in about a year let's say or something like that see now that the message that it sends to the
Ivan_Herman: world by doing that is that technically speaking the specification is final. but then we have to test it. what it means to test a vocabulary is always a complicated thing because if let's say an API is defined somewhere then we require two independent implementations of the API which the essential goal of the CR is to prove that a standard is implementable. It's not just a paperwork. That's one of the biggest difference between let's say ISO and us that we require this additional existence proof so to say for vocabularies this has always been a questionable thing.
Ivan_Herman: I mean it depends a little bit on the nature of the vocabulary because in the example that you show Carson essentially there are operations comparisons that are built into the vocabulary. So there is a processing done on the vocabulary which goes beyond what simply an ontology has. If that is the case that has to be tested whether it is properly done. So we have to have test cases and implementations. If the vocabular is in inverted comma just an ontology then usually what we say is that there has to be at least two independent usage of the vocabulary.
Ivan_Herman: So publications publishing a consuming this data with that vocabulary. So is something which is usable for the community out there.
Ivan_Herman: This is essentially what we will have to prove. I don't hear you.
Carsten_Stöcker: the same software stack.
Carsten_Stöcker: example, if so we have a lot of business registries and…
Ivan_Herman: No independent software has to prove it.
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Independent software and…
Carsten_Stöcker: independent business for example have different business registries and if the different business registry use it on independent software stack then it's two different implementations. Right. Okay.
Ivan_Herman: Yes. Yes.
Ivan_Herman: Yes. Yes. we will have to specify that precisely before we go to CR,…
Ivan_Herman: but what you say sounds perfectly feasible.
Carsten_Stöcker: No. Okay.
Carsten_Stöcker: Because we have a lot of business registries and then we always should have a possibility to do it with other implementers and…
Carsten_Stöcker: even Marcus Sabadello wanted to do an implementation because he's also interested in this work. For that reason, we should be able to deal with this. Yeah.
Ivan_Herman: So that's okay.
Ivan_Herman: We just have to specify it when we go to CR.
Carsten_Stöcker: And even Manu also did introductions to other companies.
Carsten_Stöcker: To Zean said they love it but they don't have time. Then to US Chamber of Commerce. We talked to US Chamber of Commerce next week and…
Carsten_Stöcker: maybe even Netflix. I think there could be more WCC people. I don't know if they're all members or not, but Mano did the introductions. So we most likely see some more people kind of interested in this from our WCC ecosystem.
Ivan_Herman: for a specific company I can check it for you whether the member semens is that's no problem so they can and…
Carsten_Stöcker: As soon as this Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Ivan Herman:
Ivan_Herman: the member can send as many person as they want to any working group they want.
Phil_Archer: Thank you.
Ivan_Herman: It's one or all. So none other so that should be a problem. So back in Phil I am doing a fast description of the process so that they know what expecting so if the CR is satisfactory we have test results which we can prove then we are done and we publish a recommendation so that's what happens we will have which can be a disagreeable
Ivan_Herman: thing but very useful at the same time we have what we call horizontal reviews which are very important in general we are reviewed by people who are expert in internationalization and localization accessibility security privacy and there is a technical architectural group that also reviews that for this type of work I think localiz ization will be very internationalization and localization has to be taken care of. accessibility I don't expect that to be really relevant for security and privacy.
Ivan_Herman: I just didn't read on I mean I presume mainly for privacy issues there might be issues that I don't know I mean we will cross the bridge when we get there but this is something that we have to start requesting the relevant groups before we go to CR and it usually takes a long time because they are over booked with the various working groups I mean with the verify credential groups that publishes something like 15 different document and…
Ingo_Wolf: No, thank you very much for the comprehensive overview.
Ivan_Herman: they probably hate our names already because we are there with 15 different documents to be reviewed but that's the way it is. I think that's about it right now. Any particular question? Phil we feel we agreed that this task force will set up one repository. Once the repository name is provided I will set it up.
Phil_Archer: one repo. I thought there'd be two. Okay. I mean,…
Ivan_Herman: Two yeah that's up to the task force and…
Phil_Archer: it's up to customer, not me. So, I'm Yep.
Ivan_Herman: for the time being the preferences to have two I mean it makes sense in one s situation Phil if the two work share certain tools CSS whatever then it makes sense to have them in one repository because then there can be a common place with let's say CSS files and that makes
Ivan_Herman: the audio is losing sound.
Phil_Archer: So, I suppose my questions and we'll talk about this, again next time. is I know custom and you've done all this work on those wallet vocabulary AA I know you've done a lot of work on DPP sorry sorry I'm in a hotel thing I have no control …
Ivan_Herman: Very nice.
Ivan_Herman: your foot.
Phil_Archer: what I don't know is how mature they are and how much work you think this group is going to have to do. is it at one end of the spectrum it's all done at the other end of the spectrum we have no idea what we're doing. I know that's not true, but whereabouts on that spectrum are we Yeah.
Carsten_Stöcker: I think we're on the spectrum.
Ivan_Herman: right.
Carsten_Stöcker: We have done a lot of work but still there are gaps like hey for example child relationships do we have semantics or not? Is this a missing gap? what are the other whatever power of attorney roles that need to be added? I think we can address the gap but also if a big chunk of work is being done then it needs to be aligned with other stakeholders. To have more buy in and I think this is completely pending. Yeah.
Carsten_Stöcker: only being done in Europe within our rebuild the mentor group. Yeah. Yes.
Phil_Archer: Yes, that's an issue because we have to obviously go beyond Europe for that. so I doubt it will make a huge amount of difference…
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah. Sure.
Phil_Archer: but we need to actively try and do that. Okay. …
Carsten_Stöcker: Absolutely. We reached out to man who brought us in touch with US Chamber of Commerce and others. I think we should be able to find more people. Yeah. Yeah.
Phil_Archer: and contact with UN DP will help as well. I don't know whether any of Steve Capel's team will be able to spend time on this.
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah. Yeah.
Ivan_Herman: Do that.
Phil_Archer: I hope somebody will. I'm trying to get one of the guys into the group. Wie Raymond joins today. so we got more capacity there. so I'm confident we can do this. But yes, those horizontal reviews that Ivan talked about are important. and…
Carsten_Stöcker: We're good.
Phil_Archer: I know I'm not suggesting we do it now, but it's always sooner than you think. It's always a time to start asking those groups to have a look. And then Ingo, I think you've been volunteered to be an editor. so we'll need to help you get up to speed with using GitHub and respspec and the arcane ways of W3C…
Ingo_Wolf: I pasted there two example J
Phil_Archer: which actually become really easy and…
Ivan_Herman: Phil, if you have Phil,…
Phil_Archer: then when you use it, you get really cross.
Ivan_Herman: if you have access to your chat of this room,…
Phil_Archer: Yes. All right.
Ivan_Herman: there are two because they already use respect and it looks very much like our stuff.
Phil_Archer: Excellent.
Ivan_Herman: So the learning curve is much less problematic than it could be.
Phil_Archer: Good. yes. so one place where we might be able to do some dissemination work, is I forget the threeletter acronym for the thing in Geneva on the 1st of September. DGC, the wallet thing,…
Ivan_Herman: something like that.
Ivan_Herman: I don't know.
Phil_Archer: something like The wallet thing in Geneva. Are you going to that?
Carsten_Stöcker: Global Digital Collaboration Conference or… Phil Archer:
Phil_Archer: That's the one.
Carsten_Stöcker: something like this. Phil Archer:
Phil_Archer: Yeah. GDC. Yeah. Are you going to that?
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah, there at least I registered. Yeah, I'm planning to do so. No, that's
Phil_Archer: I just got approval go. to go today. so not now, but we should think about offering a session on this, I think, because they want ideas for sessions, don't they? ideas for stuff. So, we should register some ideas for that, I think. Okay, great.
Ivan_Herman: Yeah, I think we have covered what should be covered.
Phil_Archer: Good. Yes.
Ivan_Herman: we should be proactive to get all the people in the task force on this course…
Phil_Archer: Yes, we will.
Ivan_Herman: because do you have contact in Asia?
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah, we need Yes,…
Carsten_Stöcker: of we have contact in Asia. We need to check if some of these people are part of W3C. This could be possible. I need to check it now.
Ivan_Herman: Because this is typically the kind of thing that should Not only it should not be in Europe only, but it should
Carsten_Stöcker: So we have doing a lot of supply chain projects with regards to business wallets, credentials in so-called data spaces. Yeah. And there we have other companies in South Korea, China, Wu Huay, but people right now it's super geopolitical with them to talk with them at all.
Carsten_Stöcker: Unfortunately because would have been a good fit…
Carsten_Stöcker: but geopolitically I think it's difficult. Then we have Japan, Puyitsu, DNP and others. I think I will probably need to check who's WCC member and then we can do outreach. Yeah. Yeah.
Ivan_Herman: That again checking is not a problem.
Ivan_Herman: We have our teams in China in Japan and we also have contacts in Korea. So if you need practical reach outreach etc they can be helpful for that.
Carsten_Stöcker: So we have Fitsuachi. They're all working in Europe on these topics. It's sometimes difficult to get. Yeah.
Carsten_Stöcker: There is a possibility that I send some companies we work for example for Ysu so that we find the contact person that are dealing with W3C or how should we do it because the are big corporates finding the right people sometime we know the European people…
Ivan_Herman: Kuju Limited is member I don't know let me
Carsten_Stöcker: but then yeah yes yes and…
Phil_Archer: We can always find the AC rep for any member.
Phil_Archer: That's so the key person for Asia in all this is Senong.
Carsten_Stöcker: he touched as well.
Phil_Archer: Senong though do you know Senong?
Carsten_Stöcker: Mm-
Phil_Archer: Syong used until very recently worked for the Singapore government. IMDA is particular agency and he's been on this banging this drum for a long time. his thing is crossber trade and so I was delighted that he joined the group so he's in as an invited expert he's retired but he's one of those central figures in the network for the whole of Southeast Asia at least
Ivan_Herman: Heat tree limited is also member.
Carsten_Stöcker: If you do an introduction…
Carsten_Stöcker: then I can discuss with who are the best companies that might be interested. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of Yeah.
Phil_Archer: …
Phil_Archer: we have good connections around the world in different ways.
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah, we can do more outreach. We will start this. Yeah. Yes.
Phil_Archer: Okay, thank Is this now the regular slot? I think. Yes. Is this I will be home again next week. So, I'll be here.
Carsten_Stöcker: Oops.
Phil_Archer: That won't be a problem. And we can do some Thank you.
Ivan_Herman: I add it to my calendar and…
Ivan_Herman: I changed my weekly schedule to be able to be here, but it's now changed. Almost 90% of the thing is changed.
Phil_Archer: Great. No,…
Ivan_Herman: Phil, I have no idea how this note takingaking stuff works. I see here that there is a Firefice AI note taker, Miguel, which I presume is not a person,…
Phil_Archer: It's a machine.
Ivan_Herman: but whether the minutes will be automatically sent to me and…
Ivan_Herman: then I put them out to GitHub or not, I don't know.
Ivan_Herman: There is a magic going on with money that I am not familiar with.
Phil_Archer: I agree.
Phil_Archer: And it'll be interesting to see what happens. Yes, this call it's okay. But yes, so did anyone here actively invite fireflies?
Carsten_Stöcker: This maybe manu invited them.
Phil_Archer: Right. Right.
Ivan_Herman: When I came in, it was here.
Phil_Archer: So it's probably maybe. Yeah,…
Ivan_Herman: Maybe invited is so pro because he is the one who made the reservation on the Google meet. So maybe at that point that he made some connection that we don't know. we shall see.
Phil_Archer: we'll find There's no working group call this week. because at the AC meeting in China and other bits and bobs are so I will see you cast at least on Wednesday about this time.
Ivan_Herman: Okay, bye-bye everyone.
Carsten_Stöcker: Wednesday. Yes.
Phil_Archer: Okay.
Carsten_Stöcker: Okay.
Eva_Blomqvist: Thank you. Bye.
Phil_Archer: Thank you.
Ingo_Wolf: Thank you.
Carsten_Stöcker: Bye-bye. Thank you.
Ingo_Wolf: A nice question.
Carsten_Stöcker: Bye-bye. Yes.
Phil_Archer: Thanks. you soon. Bye-bye.
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Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah, good decision.
Carsten_Stöcker: Morning. Mhm. Meeting ended after 02:10:29 👋 This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.
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