Meeting minutes
Ingo_Wolf: Let's try check can see well.
Carsten_Stöcker: Sorry. Hi,…
Ingo_Wolf: Hello.
Carsten_Stöcker: Colleen. Hello.
Ivo_Ladenius: Good afternoon.
Carsten_Stöcker: Good afternoon. Let's wait one or two more minutes.
Carsten_Stöcker: Evo, you're from Carolyn's team, right? Or at least from Surpass context,…
Carsten_Stöcker: right? Yeah.
Ingo_Wolf: Afternoon. I know. Okay.
Ivo_Ladenius: Yeah, we know each other from supers…
Ivo_Ladenius: but I'm from GS1 Netherlands and Phil Yeah,…
Carsten_Stöcker: Yes. Yes. We met in Brussels. Yes, you.
Ivo_Ladenius: Phil's my colleague at DS1
Carsten_Stöcker: Yes. Yeah. Hi, Good afternoon.
Ronald_Koenig: Hello. Heat.
Ivan_Herman: Good afternoon for everyone. So Carsten, are you already a member?
Admin: Joining The Working Group
Carsten_Stöcker: Yes. No,…
<Fireflies.ai_Notetaker_Miguel> Miguel Ángel invited Fireflies.ai here to record & take notes. By continuing, you agree to Privacy Policy | Fireflies.ai
Ivan_Herman: Is it still on the way?
Carsten_Stöcker: we're already member.
Ivan_Herman: So you have to then join the working group officially and…
Carsten_Stöcker: Yes. Yeah.
Ivan_Herman: delegate Ingo and Ronald as well. that's the last administrative step I promise you.
Carsten_Stöcker: How do we do this?
Carsten_Stöcker: How can we join officially?
Ivan_Herman: Carson,…
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah. Yes.
Ivan_Herman: you are the AC rep, right? Then…
Carsten_Stöcker: Yes. Mhm.
Ivan_Herman: if you go to the working group homepage, there is a join button. you join it and what you do first is you join the institution and then after that you delegate yourself Ingo and Ronald or in any order you prefer to represent the institution too.
Carsten_Stöcker: Why the join button?
Ivan_Herman: To be honest I never did it as a member because I was never a member. I was always team member. So there are pages that I don't even see on the website…
Carsten_Stöcker: Okay,…
Ivan_Herman: but it should be too many people have done that so it should be easy and…
Carsten_Stöcker: let's try to find it out. Yeah.
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah. Yeah. Let's check it. Okay. Good.
Ivan_Herman: as soon as you have done that then please ping me because I add you to the task force.
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah. Good.
Carsten_Stöcker: Excellent. Yes.
Ivan_Herman: And I promise you once that's over it's over.
Carsten_Stöcker: Cool.
Ivan_Herman: You are there and you are not to do any additional administration or whatever and…
Carsten_Stöcker: Then I only need to delegate it to ward and yeah don't know…
Ivan_Herman: yourself because
Carsten_Stöcker: how this works but anyway we don't need to do it now. cool. Excellent.
Agenda: Discussion On Use Cases
Carsten_Stöcker: I think from our side we have few updates. there's a discussion on high assurance inter interoperability protocols for credential formats.
Ingo_Wolf: Awesome.
Carsten_Stöcker: Then we would like to discuss a bit the So, Ingo and Ronard prepared something. Maybe we can kind of have a first look onto the use case requirements and then discuss whether it meets the requirements or not. And in addition, we also have some updates in terms of further members where we are kind of in discussions to join the task force. that's a bit agenda for my side. Caroline, what's on the agenda from your side?
Carolynn_Bernier: Nothing specific. I did get some request to join the task force that Ivan is in copy.
Ivan_Herman: Am I right?
GitHub: Managing The Use Case Document
Carolynn_Bernier: So the next step is getting the task force document work launched. But I think that a short introduction to GitHub will be useful. we do have one decision to make is we have to decide how we manage who is the editor of the use case document meaning accepting the pull requests.
Ivan_Herman: Yeah. Wow.
Carolynn_Bernier: This is a decision I think we can make now in this meeting. And I think we should kind of see what meetings we will cancel because the month of May is going to be terrible. Next Monday I am not available at all. and the 25th either. Mhm.
Carsten_Stöcker: No. Okay,…
Carsten_Stöcker: maybe we discuss this in the end which meetings we cancel or we have maybe rather short meetings instead.
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah, could be also an Good. And ub on the GitHub side maybe we start with this Caroline. what was your idea?
Carolynn_Bernier: My idea is to get everybody to be an editor.
Carolynn_Bernier: So, I kind of used to writing, research articles or scientific articles where we collaborate in the same latex document. And at this point, we want to make collaboration as easy as possible and offer the opportunity to everyone to express their ideas. We don't want to,…
Carolynn_Bernier: have a police state kind of I think that the easier it is to let people express our ideas and then we can always discuss them, And change the use case document if we disagree or things like that. I don't know. Maybe I'm optimistic here.
Carsten_Stöcker: Mhm. I think the idea is that Yeah.
Carsten_Stöcker: Even you can express it.
Ivan_Herman: Yeah, practice is Caroline that you have one or…
Ivan_Herman: two persons who are in a way responsible for the document which doesn't mean that nobody else has a say in it. GitHub has this feature which is called a pull request. Sorry to use all these jarens, but that's the way it is. Which means that anybody can raise a pull request in which they edit the document in a temporary area so to say and so not only argue but really change the document and their editors have the responsibility to what we call merge the document.
Ivan_Herman: And then there is a magic happening while git which takes care of all the possible conflicts etc that can arise. So that's the mechanism that we use in all the working groups and I think it has been proven to be pretty effective. so it doesn't mean that only the editor can write or add any text to the document. It only means that at the end of the day the editor is responsible for merging them and finalizing them formatwise and stylewise and god knows what.
Ivan_Herman: So the mechanism is there and I think it's better to use it because it has actually some automatism in the W3C process for publication makes use of that mechanism as well.
Carsten_Stöcker: Come here.
Carolynn_Bernier: So heat.
Rigo_Wenning: Yeah. But wait to your understanding this pull request it's more or less you create a branch in a new document you edit it and this pull request contains a div and then merge means applying that div to the main document edited by the main editors which means you have total control over…
Ivan_Herman: The use case document is new.
Rigo_Wenning: what they want to change. You can have a discussion on that change.
Rigo_Wenning: But I think this is the moment once we have already a very complete document or more than just a scan.
Carolynn_Bernier: Exactly. So I think…
Carolynn_Bernier: what Rio is saying is that at this point in time where there's nothing, the use case document is empty. we don't want any control. We just want to gather all the ideas in the use case documents and then when we have something that's starting to look like something then we want to control what gets changed by the editor. I think that's what you meant RO right no control at the beginning and then control at the end.
Rigo_Wenning: No, no, but the pull request still works even if you do substantial things. but then it's little bit more burdensome. That's all.
Carolynn_Bernier: I agree.
Rigo_Wenning: But it's very little more burdensome once you get used to it. on the other hand, if the document is not mature, people can try it out without making too much damage.
Carolynn_Bernier: So reducing burden to myself is something that I care a lot about. So that's why I would ideally avoid having to accept pull requests as much as possible…
Ingo_Wolf: Thank you.
Carolynn_Bernier: unless either wants to be used or Robert. H.
Robert_David: But I mean if we start working in parallel, I would advise to use this pull request because it's a way to bring merge the changes in a disciplined way. Yeah. Because…
Carolynn_Bernier: But it's not pressing the buttons that takes not it would it's reading the text and…
Robert_David: if everyone just pushes in, you will have some conflicts. Then you need to resolve the conflicts that might be because of Rigo's editing. Yeah. And you have to understand what it's probably easier to use this pull request. And it's just some button pressing three buttons on the GitHub web interface actually.
Carolynn_Bernier: seeing if there are issues.
Robert_David: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Carolynn_Bernier: That's the problem. And so the question is who is going to do this for the use case document? We will all
Ivan_Herman: We all Yeah.
Ivan_Herman: In a sense when you do a pull request that appears on GitHub and everybody can read what the changes are, everybody can put comments everybody can ask for changes in the proposed changes etc. So the idea is all members of the working group the task force or the working group for that matter should read and comment on whatever is proposed. in practice of course it never happens that everyone does that but everyone who has a stake in it or has interest or a knowledge or whatever can contribute. So a pull request is never an opaque thing. It's always visible to everyone and…
Ingo_Wolf: Ready?
Ivan_Herman: everyone in the task force has the right to comment to propose changes on the changes etc. Actually, this is one example why I push you all the time to register your GitHub account to your account because then automatically the people in the task force all have the right to contribute and change the pull request.
Rigo_Wenning: And it automatically clears all the IPR issues.
Ivan_Herman: Says the lawyer
Ivan_Herman: That's the tough one.
Carolynn_Bernier: …
Carolynn_Bernier: who is volunteer for being editor of the use case document? Meaning clicking the buttons once everybody's commented on the pull requests. That's the tough
Editor: Use Case Document Volunteers
Ivo_Ladenius: Yes, no problem.
Ingo_Wolf: I can't do that.
Ingo_Wolf: If another person would volunteer to sidestep or…
Ingo_Wolf: contribute as well to this activity. Yeah.
Ivan_Herman: Ingo I have put into the repository a separate folder for the u UCR.
Ivan_Herman: So it's all yours and it's a respect skeleton already but you can recognize that.
Ingo_Wolf: I already worked with this and filled the first nine use cases and…
Ivan_Herman: Good. …
Ingo_Wolf: requirements into it…
Carolynn_Bernier: Thank you.
Ingo_Wolf: but I was not able to push it so far because I was unauthorized…
Ivan_Herman: because you are not Yeah. Sure. Kirsten,…
Ingo_Wolf: but yeah there is something prepared
Ivan_Herman: we don't hear you.
Carsten_Stöcker: Just wondering,…
Carsten_Stöcker: have you onboarded Ingo and Ward already to the GitHub repo or do we need to do it via the organization affiliation of WCC?
Carsten_Stöcker: I think I don't know how it works.
Ivan_Herman: But I don't understand…
Ivan_Herman: what you ask.
Carsten_Stöcker: In terms of onboarding Ingu and Rona do they also not yet onboarded the Phil organization on WVC. but I think this is unrelated right. Okay.
Ivan_Herman: No. No. It is related because as soon as they are part of the organization then they have The way I set it up as far as I remember is that all the members of the task force have a right access to the repository.
Ivan_Herman: I think that's what we agreed upon last time. But if I forgot then you will tell me and I change people.
Carsten_Stöcker: No, no,…
Carsten_Stöcker: no, no.
Rigo_Wenning: That's the tool Ivan I was talking about. They have an automatic tool now that if you are not part of the working group and you make commitment and you allow for that they need to click through a shrink rep US law license anyway before being able to submit a pull request.
Ivan_Herman: Not for the UCR which is not a normative document.
Carolynn_Bernier: You said in go that you already made a pull request in the use case document.
Ingo_Wolf: No, I tried to push my local changes to the repository and…
Ingo_Wolf: make then an pull request from that branch, but I was not able to create this branch beside the main in this repository.
Carolynn_Bernier: Okay, that sounds okay.
Ivan_Herman: because they are not yet officially members on the task force.
Rigo_Wenning: Yeah,…
Rigo_Wenning: I poked them internally, Ivan. And they said It's in the making.
Ivan_Herman: It's done. They are already members. They haven't joined the working group yet.
Carsten_Stöcker: Okay.
Rigo_Wenning: That means they need three more clicks.
Ivan_Herman: Maybe four. Five.
Ingo_Wolf: Okay. none.
Carsten_Stöcker: Do you already have an WCC accounting go and whatnot? Okay,…
Ingo_Wolf: I am aware of Okay.
Rigo_Wenning: everyone needs to create their direct accounts very very easy very quick and…
Carsten_Stöcker: then we need to fix this as well I guess. Yeah.
Rigo_Wenning: then the AC rep can because you are affiliated then the AC rep can just push you everywhere and…
Carsten_Stöcker: Damn heat.
Rigo_Wenning: has the dashboard and all of
Carolynn_Bernier: And when you create your W3C You link your GitHub handle to your W3C account. Carolynn Bernier:
Ivan_Herman: Exactly. Thank you,…
Ivan_Herman: There are the way that the repository is set up is that you will be able to see the document as pure HTML under a slightly different URL automatically.
Carolynn_Bernier: How do I see the of html when I'm on GitHub for the document?
Ivan_Herman: And…
Ivan_Herman: I think I put the pointers that should be used for that on the read me page. But if not, then I should do that. That's me.
Carolynn_Bernier: I point to the HTML index…
Carolynn_Bernier: but not to somehow my browser just if I go to readme.md And I click on the use cases.
Ivan_Herman: Just dead.
Carsten_Stöcker: Cool. But I guess that's
Ivan_Herman: So let me just put it on the chat and…
Ivan_Herman: Go to that URL, Caroline. io is a general trick on GitHub. If you push on it, then it opens up as an HTML file and this opens up to three pointers to the three documents this task force will edit in the repository.
<Carsten_Stöcker> W3C Member Account Creation: https://
Carolynn_Bernier: Excellent.
Carolynn_Bernier: Okay.
Ivan_Herman: And now of course they are just skeletons, but that's fine. And also when we will have to set this up actually…
Ivan_Herman: but now that's will be sorry I just mumbling I will have to find out a way to do that more properly.
Carolynn_Bernier: I guess from the GitHub itself,…
Carolynn_Bernier: you can add the links to that in the read me.
Carolynn_Bernier: No, but for the moment, it points to github.com, not github.io.
<Ivan_Herman> DPP & Business Wallet Vocabularies | vc-dpp-bw
Ivan_Herman: That's where the whole thing is.
Ivan_Herman: Yes. If you look at the repository page on the upper right hand corner,…
Ivan_Herman: there is a URL to this GitHub, the io. How do you share a screen on this stuff?
Carolynn_Bernier: on the upper right hand corner.
Rigo_Wenning: There's a button in the middle with a file upwards.
Ivan_Herman: Can I rewind it and…
Rigo_Wenning: You should be able to share because I able to share.
Ivan_Herman: Okay. Do you see what I share?
Rigo_Wenning: Yes, we don't see your mouse.
Ivan_Herman: Here is a pointer. Caroline, how come I
Carolynn_Bernier: Where is your Yeah.
Ivo_Ladenius: No, hold up.
Carolynn_Bernier: Where's your mouse?
Rigo_Wenning: There it is.
Rigo_Wenning: Yes, right corner in blue font.
Carolynn_Bernier: about but I don't see the same screen as you. If I go to I don't see about contributors.
Ivan_Herman: And under about you see a URL.
Ivan_Herman: Click on it.
Carolynn_Bernier: Okay okay okay. Ivan Herman:
Ivan_Herman: You don't see the same thing. Yeah.
Carolynn_Bernier: I have to go back to To the main page. All right. Perfect. Thank Sorry for that little digression. Carson, you wanted to talk about use cases or Ingo had lots of use cases to share. Maybe we can discuss that.
Carsten_Stöcker: I mean no Ingo maybe you share what has been done on the use case requirements.
Ingo_Wolf: Yeah, I can currently only share my screen …
Ingo_Wolf: since I was not yet able to push this but yeah examples of use cases This end requirements are sorry this was the wrong tab.
Carolynn_Bernier: So this is requirements for use cases or…
Carolynn_Bernier: use examples of use cases.
Ingo_Wolf: Now it should be visible.
Carsten_Stöcker: This is a good chat.
Ingo_Wolf: Yes. Yeah.
Use Cases: Rebuild Consortium Examples
Ingo_Wolf: So maybe I can nine use cases.
Ivan_Herman: This is…
Ivan_Herman: what you call two or three. It's fine. Okay.
Ingo_Wolf: Yeah. it's a little bit mixed still. So for example one is here trusted sharing in a data space.
Carolynn_Bernier: So here you're talking about for wallet, right?
Ingo_Wolf: The narrative of the stories is a bit lengthy sometimes I would say but therefore every use case description has such summary in the head about the actors trigger of the use case precondition post condition like you see them here and…
Carsten_Stöcker: Thank you.
Ingo_Wolf: yeah that's the structure of every use case. So for example, you can read them here. company representative acting on behalf of a company is another scenario. Then all these due diligence use cases. then onboarding for suppliers or customers in the same area. foreign tax declaration is another one. Issuing micro credentials and verified skills. this is about educational credentials for example.
Ingo_Wolf: And yeah, authentication and access for transport is then another one. And last but not least, invoicing. So all those were out of the use cases from the rebuild consortium. We have some more to contribute concerning agentic AI or…
Ronald_Koenig: Awesome.
Ingo_Wolf: trusted AI use cases but we didn't want to put everything at the beginning not to overwhelm everybody. So yeah maybe we can add that later on. And yeah for all of the use cases there is section which is then more detailed in this main paragraph requirements.
Ingo_Wolf: So they are also described in the same style with priority levels should and may differentiated yeah and…
Carolynn_Bernier: So, requirements for the vocabularies,…
Ingo_Wolf: that's requirement for the use case.
Carolynn_Bernier: not requirements for the use case. so these requirements that you're listing it's all of these requirements.
Ingo_Wolf: Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Right.
Carolynn_Bernier: They come of course from the use cases, but they're the requirements for the vocabularies that are going to be designed. What are they requirements for?
Ingo_Wolf: To understand the use case better on or generally the requirements concerning the credentiing of the use case here,…
Ivan_Herman: Nice big Yeah.
Rigo_Wenning: But we don't have a use case.
Rigo_Wenning: We don't have a use case story yet in this document. meaning some kind of narrative a 10.
Ronald_Koenig: What is this?
Carolynn_Bernier: It's there.
Carolynn_Bernier: It's in chapter 2.
Ingo_Wolf: Yeah. So, every use case has such a narrative. here, depending on the number of actors, three to five actors, it's sometimes a bit longer and sometimes a bit shorter. Yes, Ivan, please.
Ivan_Herman: But I think what Caroline is asking is essential here and it's a little bit missing because we have two different types of requirements so to You have a requirement which is for the use case what it means in general which is valuable. So we should probably keep it. But then there is a next level of requirement…
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah.
Ingo_Wolf: Right.
Ivan_Herman: which says based on this these are the requirements on the vocabulary because this is our end product. So I would say there are two levels of requirements and…
Ivan_Herman: on each of them we should try eventually to deduce the vocabulary requirement which is a bit different.
Carolynn_Bernier: I totally agree.
Carolynn_Bernier: I totally agree.
Ronald_Koenig: actually actually…
Ronald_Koenig: what we are doing in vbuild is the scenario description. This is what we call here the use case requirement that you understand the workflow and the actors and all the other stuff. And the second one is And in the rule book the use case owner is requested to provide a list of properties and the meaning of this properties so that we can start modeling it into the business vocabulary. and we are not asking for modeling.
Ronald_Koenig: We are asking them which information elements you are needed for your use case so that we can start then modeling one and can get a vocabulary because we get a lot of requirements from different use cases and we put the stuff together to one vocabulary so that we get semantic interoperability between the different use cases because the use cases will be defined by different groups that's the way we are working currently in vu And I completely agree that means this part is still missing though that we have a list of properties which are required for the specific use case.
Carolynn_Bernier: But in this use case document do we want to go into detail on the uses? Basically here you're talking about uses of the different use cases for a business wallet we could go into different use cases for a DBP but here we are going for years of work to list them all right so is that what is a use case here for me a use case was not in how am I going to use the wallet or how am I going to use the DPP
Carolynn_Bernier: but rather why do we need global standards for a DBP or…
Ronald_Koenig: No, a use case for
Carolynn_Bernier: for a business wallet? Why? because otherwise EU can do their own vocabularies on their own. But if we're here in W3C, it's because we need global interoperability. So for me is a would be an a EU issued wallet gets recognized in India. That's a use case for me. that's anyways what I understood otherwise we don't need to be here.
Ronald_Koenig: First let me explain for example some use cases we have one use case for example is the KYC use case how do you open a bank account in Europe cross country so that means a German company can open a bank account for example in the Netherlands so that means the quest is what are the requirements from the anti-moneyary law with respect to which data are required so that you can fulfill the rules and the requirements which are given by the AML law we have in Germany or in Europe in common. So that means what we are defining is who is providing the data, who has to present the data, who has to verify the data, what data are required to go through this use case. And the use case is pretty simple.
Ronald_Koenig: a German company wants to open a bank account in the Netherlands somewhere. So what we have to agree upon to make this happen? The same thing we are doing for KYs. So supplier onboarding one company wants to onboard another company which checks have to go through for this one and this is a use case which they find and then we have to figure out which data are required to do so by because a lot of companies are involved in the definition of the use cases and they are defining the requirements they need to get.
Ronald_Koenig: or for example to the M master data of the keys process and…
Ronald_Koenig: then we are putting this one into a formal vocabulary. This is the last step we are doing because the first thing what we have to understand is the business use case. So who is involved, who who is asserting something to who can verify it and so on.
Carolynn_Bernier: I yes…
Use Cases: Global Interoperability Perspective
Carolynn_Bernier: but to do that you don't need the W3C you could do that in the context of we build W3C is necessary when we want global interoperability of use cases so the same business use cases you're defining but in international out of EU contexts we're trying Karsten is doing a lot of progress getting the US chamber of commerce people interested in this work and…
Rigo_Wenning: Yeah, but that means Caroline, we need more international participants. So we get this off the ground to get those people
Carolynn_Bernier: we have to work in this
Carolynn_Bernier: perspective. I hope that everybody will join us. But the perspective for me, the use case is for global interoperability of wallets and DPPs beyond Europe.
Ivan_Herman: And…
Ivan_Herman: to back that up, we explicitly made it clear in the charter that we are not European only.
Carolynn_Bernier: Exactly. So Ronald, your use cases are perfect. They just have to be beyond Europe like opening a bank account with a European business wallet in India and vice versa,
Ronald_Koenig: Yeah, but again we have started now with 26 countries and we know and the industry in Germany is requesting that we have international use cases and we need some trust framework which is not only the European market. It is international market we are addressing here. But for this one we need let me say the requirements from the different governance we have in the other countries. So we are currently already working or looking into for example the Asia for digital product passport and data spaces. So that means there is already discussion about it.
Ronald_Koenig: But the focus point currently is or…
Carolynn_Bernier: Of course.
Ronald_Koenig: let me say currently we are still focused on Europe because most of the participants in this use case definition comes from Europe. So that means if we get international audience to go through then we have to adapt the vocabulary that we can also do the same thing what we can do in international scale of course.
Carolynn_Bernier: So I don't know if Carsten you have any feedback from the US Chamber of Commerce that you contacted…
Carolynn_Bernier: because I'm believe business wallets are not unique to Europe. I'm sure other states are working on them.
Carsten_Stöcker: Current I think we have a rebuilt kind of use cases…
Carsten_Stöcker: but in addition we prepared international use cases with US with Japan with China with South Korea with Brazil with whatever so that we have a bit of variety of the use cases right now this European touch is a little bit too much from my perspective but
Carsten_Stöcker: That's the second step. Yeah. To add to add more use cases, international blend and I think then it's more international and of course when it comes to European company certificates it's super European. When it comes to legal entity identifier or VAT number so this is international. For that reason I think that this will kind of distinguish the two and tonight we are talking with the US Chamber of Commerce and also Fujitsu the guy was interested to join from Fuetssu. This would mean we have a person from Japan. He's only clarifying this with his senior management that he's allowed to join.
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah. From Fujitsu. It's a person from Katina X.
Carolynn_Bernier: Who is this person?
Carolynn_Bernier: Is it Nikico?
Carsten_Stöcker: Now it's different name complex Japanese name.
Carolynn_Bernier: Complex Japanese name. Good. Anyways in the context of the DPP for me definitely the goal here for me is building interoperability between the different DPP flavors you will have in different regions of the world.
Carsten_Stöcker: A guy from Japan. Mhm.
Carolynn_Bernier: So that's the goal. It's not just the EU DPP but all DPSPs.
Carsten_Stöcker: No. Yeah.
Carolynn_Bernier: So coming back to our future use case document I think we need to have a wallet specific use cases…
Carsten_Stöcker: Yes. Mhm.
Carolynn_Bernier: then DPP specific use cases and then we want DPP plus wallets use cases No,…
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah, I think we should first start with the simple ones just the DPP just the wallet and…
Carsten_Stöcker: then do maybe the DPP plus wallet later. This is primarily about authentication authorization I think on the control plane I would assume. Yeah. Yeah.
<Carsten_Stöcker> Fujitsu:
Carolynn_Bernier: no, it's also about verifiable claims for data that it can be linked to from a DPP. there are many use cases.
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah. Yeah.
Carolynn_Bernier: There are many use cases. There's registering a DPP in the registry. There is authenticating a DPP. There's linking DPPS to claims. there's several use cases. And for example,…
Carolynn_Bernier: it'd be cool to have a EUPPP link to a UNP DPP claim. things like that.
Carsten_Stöcker: Mhm. But…
<Carsten_Stöcker> Koichi is still clarifying if he can participate.
Carsten_Stöcker: if you agree then we first start with simple DPP use cases. I think now we brought the use cases as an example that we can add some international use cases. then we have kind of a balanced view on whatever on the different geographies and I think then we can go from there. The only question is should we have two use case documents.
Carolynn_Bernier: Wait a minute. Stop.
Carsten_Stöcker: I think we discussed last time hey let's do one but I think it will be very populated crowded document. Maybe it's better to have a DPP and a business document and eventually have a blended document.
Carsten_Stöcker: Where you going?
Rigo_Wenning: So I think first of all this is a use case document. This is not the document that creates the vocabularies.
Carsten_Stöcker: Mhm. Sure.
Rigo_Wenning: When you look at the track and trace the DPP the wallet or company registry customs realities today they have stockpiles of paper that they carry around look at the transport business and so on. So I think it's a bit too much asking for onesizefits all thingy here. what we can do and what this is very strong at is to have a modular approach. That means a use case document can be arbitrarily big because W3C use case documents can be navigated like a database. you You can point fragment identifier wise to whatever use case or chapter or what we have.
Rigo_Wenning: But I think a use case document perhaps we need a separate use case or a separate document which in W3C speech is a primer saying hey we are doing this because we are realizing that we will use the E EU business or the business wallet stuff with customs in context with DPPs in other context. because in my opinion also in my experience people will not understand what we are doing. they will ask hey where's the database and that's it.
Rigo_Wenning: So this is e Ivan it's a bit different because to usual W3C work because we have also an education task and that's really where I learned a lot from Kolin in because at the beginning of SEAS I was going there with my high-flying ideas and she said stop wait we have to get the people where they are and get them to understand what we want to do and this turned out to be extremely beneficial and…
Rigo_Wenning: I think we should do that. It's not a dispute for the use case document in my point of view. it's something where we could have a primer. Ivan, do you have an idea whether this is a primer or something else? A note.
Ivan_Herman: No, it's just a note.
Ivan_Herman: I don't think the primary is usually done as an explanation of the specification you write. The specification is an abstract semi-mathematical document and you need a primer to make people understand what the heck is going on in extreme cases and that's what a primer usually is. this is something else. I think it's but who cares?
Ivan_Herman: I mean it's a node which we can use for whatever…
Carolynn_Bernier: It's the introduction of the use case document.
Rigo_Wenning: I think it really goes beyond this is become like this.
Ivan_Herman: but we can try to get it. So I mean I am a little bit worry about multiplicating the number of documents that we produce and edit. So yeah,…
Carolynn_Bernier: I would prefer that the pe. Why are we doing this? If we can't explain this in the introduction paragraph of the use case document,…
Ingo_Wolf: It's b****.
Carolynn_Bernier: we're never going to onboard anybody.
Rigo_Wenning: the trouble I see is that in this large variety not everybody will be wanting to carry all the load of larger things.
Ivan_Herman: maybe two paragraphs.
Carolynn_Bernier: Maybe two paragraphs.
Rigo_Wenning: So at some point in time we also need what the standards world calls profile meaning a toned down version that ties to a very specific use case and so on because people look at also this as a list of things they need to accomplish and…
Carolynn_Bernier: Right.
Rigo_Wenning: and if you have this large document that has everything into it and that the assumption is that you do it all.
Ronald_Koenig: What's this?
Rigo_Wenning: Yeah, Ian.
Ivan_Herman: So I think we have to be careful about the vocabulary…
Ivan_Herman: because we are talking about a vocabulary and I think what we can define as a vocabulary at least in the first is the generalization of the various use case things that needs a vocabulary and…
Ronald_Koenig: There's
Ivan_Herman: it's the generalization which is a kind of a high level vocabulary which then can have properties and classes and whatnot and then for a specific usage area you create subclasses and subproperties and sub data types and whatever is necessary and that's not necessarily what we will do. We might do it for one or two explicit use cases just to show how it is done. But I think what we have to abstract out is what are the general principles that have to be put into a vocabulary in the large areas of DPP or…
Ivan_Herman: or something else.
Carolynn_Bernier: I entirely agree,…
Carolynn_Bernier: but we absolutely therefore need a use case for issuing a JTC 24 compliant DPP.
Ivan_Herman: Yeah, but for the use case should help us to find the level of abstractions that are then translated into a vocabulary. Carson, you are muted or something is happening.
Carsten_Stöcker: I was just wondering if we should kind of focus more on abstract use cases like issuing a JTC 24 credential or…
Carsten_Stöcker: a market world credential or should we kind of have more concrete use cases? I didn't quite catch the conclusion.
Rigo_Wenning: We
Carolynn_Bernier: But issuing a credential is a use case.
Carolynn_Bernier: No, or issuing a DPP is a use case. No.
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah. Yeah. So on the business wallets we had use cases such as your customer and then transportation and a tax report submission and so on.
Carsten_Stöcker: This was extremely maybe too concrete yeah not sure but at least especially the KC is determining the vocabulary because we have control structures and ubos and this is l linked to the KC but maybe we can at least kind of let's say try to aggregate a bit or to have less detailed use cases Okay,…
Rigo_Wenning: I think we are going by doing the use case approach. You do bazaar instead of the cathedral. That means you go out into the concrete and you look for issues and then Ivan pointed out we generalize from there. and the other one is the other one and…
Carsten_Stöcker: that's fine. Rigo Wenning:
Rigo_Wenning: that needs use cases. the more concrete you are. so just as an example when there was the first discussion in the multistakeholder platform on this digital product passport years ago I wrote an article about a very poor little screwdriver and his life cycle. And this really hit the discussion because people now understood what we are talking about and I think that's actually the goal of a use case document that we are understanding what we are talking about and then I imagine we will have wild discussion because sometimes there will be conflicts and saying hey do we really need that book this you can take from over there and so on.
Rigo_Wenning: But I raised my hand also to point everybody to this new feedback thingy from the commission where everybody should answer and I know that farity already answered in the call for evidence period but now is the commission adoption feedback is open and I think We should all respond to that. I think it's Yes.
Carolynn_Bernier: until the 6th of May.
<Rigo_Wenning> Have your say
Carolynn_Bernier: No way. Not possible. Mhm.
Rigo_Wenning: I saw it bit late and then there was this long weekend but I still wanted to make everybody aware.
Ronald_Koenig: Yeah, you go.
Ronald_Koenig: I discussed it today with the data space guys with confinity and container X because I did the first call of evidence feedback fority and I think for this European business proposal what we are talking about here it was more general feedback what are the general features of a European business wallet in comparison to the natural person wallet which was
Ronald_Koenig: the focus of the first I have and therefore we are not really currently doing the second round because we already did the first round and most of our stuff which we have mentioned there for example user management like machine-to-achine communication like semantic modeling of complex credentials and…
Ronald_Koenig: so on was taken into account and is already reflected in the European business proposal but we have to comment again let me say it is a lot of things in which we mentioned in the first round of feedback.
Carolynn_Bernier: So you're relatively confident with the content of this proposal?
Ronald_Koenig: So what was it called a call of evidence in the sense of that we should give our first examination of is the European business proposal good enough to reflect what we need
Carolynn_Bernier: That's good.
Rigo_Wenning: Yeah, it's just because there is this relation between the EODI wallet and the business wallet and I want to avoid us get getting into this defense situation again where in the business wallet verifiable credentials don't play a role. Because that's really the danger here because somebody comes up with a nice database or…
Rigo_Wenning: flat JSON schema database format.
Carolynn_Bernier: so we're coming to the end of this meeting and…
Carolynn_Bernier: I think we should discuss when we meet again. I am not available next Monday, but you can meet and I need maybe Regal to spend a 15 minutes with me maybe Wednesday or Thursday to explain to me how I make a poll request.
Rigo_Wenning: No trouble. We'll find the time covering for the pull request stuff. it's pretty simple.
Carolynn_Bernier: That way we can start filling in Ivan's empty documents with a few ideas of what each of us considers to be a use case so that next time we meet we can continue debating on what is the use case and agreeing on that and maybe one of us can start writing an introductory paragraph or two on why we are doing this work.
Rigo_Wenning: Yeah,
Carolynn_Bernier: Then Very good idea.
Ivan_Herman: The first thing is probably that as soon as Engle gets the right to it, is it okay if instead of the empty skeleton,…
Ingo_Wolf: Very good.
Ivan_Herman: we start from that document.
Rigo_Wenning: I wanted to suggest that you
Ivan_Herman: Sorry, I was quicker.
Carolynn_Bernier: Perfect. Thank you.
Ivan_Herman: So, Ingo, you should get the right to merge within an hour or an hour and a half.
Carolynn_Bernier: So I leave you to decide if you want to meet on the 18th I am available. So you meet again.
Ivan_Herman: I'm around
Carolynn_Bernier: If you don't mind,…
Ingo_Wolf: Thank you.
Carolynn_Bernier: I am going to leave the call because I have so much work to do before midnight tonight.
Ivan_Herman: Are we done for today?
Carolynn_Bernier: So ciao. Are they?
Rigo_Wenning: At least the car lost the engine. so yes I really think we have to understand that we are creating this in institutional group that is then capable to respond to the many challenges that we will get because I think this business and I'm coming from pile of paper world me meaning the legal side where we will have lots of fun.
Rigo_Wenning: The technical side is how do we deal with people claiming to do linked data and not really doing it does being square in your way when you want to kind of put the modules that you build together and it doesn't fit anymore because they put a screw in the middle. I think that will also be a challenge. I think the use case documents it's very useful but I also think that explaining note I think it's not sufficient but I will talk to Kolene to make just an introduction we will need to do the introduction but I think we will need more because there will be lots
Rigo_Wenning: But once we get visibility once the submarine does surface I think we will get a lot of attention from regulators that at least was Ian the experience from Pontoan when going to the world customs conference. So I expect us to get more dynamics one once we get more visibility Okay.
Ivan_Herman: Okay, then I think we can close
Ronald_Koenig: But for this one just one question because I didn't catch it. Is it now that we want to have two use case documents or do we want to go forward with one because we have at least two topics. one is business identity or the identity of companies and the other one is DPP. So if you are going forward to have for DPP's own use case document and for business identities another one this would already bring the document I think pretty down more to a size…
Ivan_Herman: From my point of view,…
Ronald_Koenig: which is easier to handle. Let me say it this way.
Ivan_Herman: from strictly the staff contact point of view as to deal with things, I prefer to keep it one if you can.
Ronald_Koenig: Okay.
Ivan_Herman: I mean there might be a point where the two main chapters so to say are so much different that we may need to go aside but I would prefer to I mean at least try to keep it as one document that we publish eventually as a note rather than two but seeing it from the working groups level…
Ronald_Koenig: Fine with me.
Ivan_Herman: because we have already loads of documents that we publish. I mean I lost the track of the number of documents that we publish.
Ivan_Herman: We are almost as bad as there are the working group these days and
Rigo_Wenning: The Ivan you have I think we have a valid additional argument to your argument that I support…
Rigo_Wenning: which is that if we have one document in this one document it will be rather easy despite the fact that it may be huge to explain a relation between the wallet use cases and the DPP use cases because the DPP is a consumer of the wallet and it's a contributor into the wallet which for example is the question of what DPP information do you want to have in your wallet?
Rigo_Wenning: For example, the DPP requires you to have a legal identifier for the responsible economic operator or RIO, but it also has a manda mandatory information on the factory or the point of import that was used.
Rigo_Wenning: And is that part of the wallet. This is a discussion to have. and How do you merge that in? so it's easier in one document. This is much easier to do because you just refer to the other fragment identifier is section such and such. While in the other document you have a full link and it makes things more complex.
Ivan_Herman: Okay, works for me.
Ivan_Herman: Okay, let's Yeah.
Carsten_Stöcker: I have one more question.
Carsten_Stöcker: Do we need to discuss the semantic supply chain?
Ivan_Herman: What?
Carsten_Stöcker: Semantic supply chain. So Vocabulary goes on GitHub. there's governance. when there are changes to the vocabulary then this control changes for the security perspective of the credential. Is this something we have in scope the semantic supply chain that's probably governed down to the fact that people consume it and…
Ivan_Herman: I can't answer that.
Carsten_Stöcker: and use it in their applications or is this out of scope for recovery?
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah, maybe it's something for next week. Cool. Yes.
Rigo_Wenning: I clicked the wrong button.
Rigo_Wenning: Part of why we do this in the verifiable credential working group is precisely because we want to secure the semantic chain.
Ivan_Herman: I am expected on the next call.
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah, I am.
Rigo_Wenning: And there is this difficult…
Rigo_Wenning: because security is inverse proportional. Okay. Yeah.
Carsten_Stöcker: Okay, here we go.
Carsten_Stöcker: We pick it up next week because very important question also with SD Jot security and…
Rigo_Wenning: We would…
Carsten_Stöcker: the challenges with S JSON AD is unsecure blah blah blah. So this is really a deep dive topic. We can also have a follow-up discussion. Yeah.
Rigo_Wenning: then invite Simon. This is a bigger fight we have with the IETF that we had in the multistakeholder platform. and…
Ingo_Wolf: Thank care. Bye.
Rigo_Wenning: you have commented on the LinkedIn thread where the education people showed up and…
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah, I know.
Rigo_Wenning: said are you crazy? this is all about this and…
Carsten_Stöcker: Ro, let's have a follow-up call.
Rigo_Wenning: It's day one day we can talk about it.
Carsten_Stöcker: You did a lot of research a little.
Rigo_Wenning: Okay. But…
Carsten_Stöcker: Okay. Yeah.
Rigo_Wenning: then we would invite Simon.
Carsten_Stöcker: We do this. We go and…
Ivo_Ladenius: Thank you. Bye-bye.
Carsten_Stöcker: other people speak to next time. Ronaldo. Byebye. Cheers. Meeting ended after 01:04:25 👋 This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.