Meeting minutes
IRC Channel Discussion
Eva_Blomqvist: Nine.
Phil_Archer: Hey, Dr. Benning.
Rigo_Wenning: Yeah, I missed last week. looking at the rights, but Phil, it's more complex than I thought it is.
Phil_Archer: …
Rigo_Wenning: because I realized that the Apache license has still some viral parts and I don't know how this affects the specification work. At least the notice in the spec
<Fireflies.ai_Notetaker_Miguel> Miguel Ángel invited Fireflies.ai here to record & take notes.
Phil_Archer: we had a very productive conversation that, may affect whether that's actually still relevant or not because, unless Caroline has a different, understanding of the outcome.
Phil_Archer: I think actually it's became a lot easier for a lot of reasons.
Phil_Archer: So I'll let Caroline talk about it.
Rigo_Wenning: No glasses.
Phil_Archer: And Ted, what a pleasure. Hi Okay,…
Carolynn_bernier: I always have a hard time finding the link to that tool you're using.
Ivo_Ladenius: the IRC. Yeah, me too.
Phil_Archer: let's see.
Carolynn_bernier: Yes. Where is the link to the IRS?
Rigo_Wenning: .
Carolynn_bernier: It's not in the task force page. It's in the work it's in the
Rigo_Wenning: What's the IC channel?
Phil_Archer: And is it the invitation? No, it should be in the task force calendar. Hang on. We're getting there. So, let me be helpful here. So, what I'm looking at now, looking for the chat here, blah blah. Where's the chat? There. So I'm looking at that which is the calendar for this particular task force and if you go there and look at this and…
Phil_Archer: click on the title of this meeting and scroll down you should find the RC information.
Carolynn_bernier: I'm looking at it now.
Rigo_Wenning: You sure?
Carolynn_bernier: I don't see the IRC.
Phil_Archer: It's not.
Carolynn_bernier: It's not there.
<Phil_Archer> Calendar | VC DPP & Business Wallet | Task Forces | Discover W3C groups | W3C
Rigo_Wenning: Maybe arbitrary decision. It's
Carolynn_bernier: I think it's actually in the W3C the working group IRC
Phil_Archer: Yeah, just use that. but hang on a sec. Look at some of the other ones. See if they have a separate IRC channel. They might. Let me have a look. No, they don't because I think it's all autoscribed. So we don't need a scribe for these meetings.
Phil_Archer: It's all taken care of by Manusoft. so we don't need to worry.
Phil_Archer: So you can just use the chat here and we're fine. We don't need a separate IC channel. Ivan will tell me…
Carolynn_bernier: Are you sure?
Phil_Archer: if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure we don't need a separate IC channel for these task force calls.
Rigo_Wenning: Phil, this is heretic,…
Rigo_Wenning: .
Phil_Archer: I know it's completely heretical. I know, but I believe that's the case.
Phil_Archer: Ivan, hi. All right. Thinking we don't need an IC channel for these because they're being autoscribed. No, he's only here in spirit, not in person. Don't know.
Carolynn_bernier: Ian he's not really with us.
Carolynn_bernier: Let us know…
Phil_Archer: This is all being described automatically by manu's thing,…
Carolynn_bernier: if you join us.
Ivan_Herman: I'm sorry.
Carolynn_bernier: …
Ivan_Herman: I'm sorry. My mistake. What do you mean by autoscribe, Phil? So,…
Phil_Archer: isn't it?
Ivan_Herman: the chat of the call here. That's what you mean.
Phil_Archer: Yes. …
Ivan_Herman: Not the IRC channel.
Phil_Archer: no, it's being
Phil_Archer: Yeah, we're saying. We haven't got an RC channel because we don't need one for this call.
Ivan_Herman: That is correct.
Phil_Archer: That's what I said.
Carolynn_bernier: we don't need an IRC. okay.
Phil_Archer: Not for this only for the big Wednesday meetings. Okay.
Carolynn_bernier: All So, no I assume Karsten, you got my mail that I propose that we devote this meeting to DPP vocabularies and next Monday we devote the call to the wallet.
Carsten_Stöcker: totally. Yeah.
Carolynn_bernier: All this call is Next Monday is on wallet. So, we can all skip a Yes.
Carsten_Stöcker: And talen. So we also did some work.
Carsten_Stöcker: So Ingo did some work on bridge vocabularies for DBPs and…
Ivan_Herman: Yeah.
Carsten_Stöcker: that's maybe something we can bring to the agenda today. Yeah because vocabularies we're picking up the discussion from Brussels.
Carolynn_bernier: That's pretty cool.
<Ted_Guild> ivan++
Carolynn_bernier: That's very very cool. Okay, so that's very very cool.
Carsten_Stöcker: So we say hey we have different vocabularies how does it work together? what does mean for What is the value add of JSON LD in the age of AI? so did a great job kind of preparing this. Yeah.
Carolynn_bernier: Maybe can you see my screen? so I just wanted to brief people on what was said in our face toface meeting last two weeks ago June 3rd just understand who's interested in this work and we need to continue working on agreeing on what we want to achieve in the next steps.
Carolynn_bernier: So I'm just going to very briefly just show you what I shared during the VC working group meeting in Brussels where I just basically presented the DPP as an online collection of machine readable product data accessible through a data carrier and this is not a surprise to anybody. DPSPs are being introduced all over the world as In the EU as a mandatory instrument, but in many in industry is voluntary for innovation. The United Nations is implementing a voluntary DPP scheme for the traceability of ESG information. There's activities in China, Vietnam, all over the place. So, not the e the DPP is not just a European thing.
Carolynn_bernier: And another very important thing is that it's a very political issue. And most likely both JSON and JSONLDD will be used for DPSPs but not all DPSPs will be issued as verified credentials. each national DPP scheme or scheme will likely use different vocabularies. Okay, this is…
Carolynn_bernier: why bridge vocabularies are important. The European Commission itself will likely create their own vocabularies for the EU DPP. and…
Rigo_Wenning: All recognize ours.
Carolynn_bernier: basic what Rio or…
Rigo_Wenning: All recognize ours.
Carolynn_bernier: rec or recognize ours If we create some and this is the comment made by Phil just previously. is it our mandate to create vocabularies? And then the problem I Carolyn personally am trying to solve is making it easy to reuse and exploit product data from any DBP issued anywhere by any organization according to any standard. Okay.
Carolynn_bernier: and also combining data coming from these DPPS that have been issued by different organizations and linking DPPs and product related attestations usually in the form of verifiable credentials and of course the DPSPs and organizational identities issues are really closely related hence the work with the similar work to the wallet
Carolynn_bernier: And I showed this slide which is basically what I see are as two major challenges for the success of DPPs. So we don't want companies to be forced to place multiple data carriers on their products to comply with different DPP legislations all over the world. and then another issue is a conflict of law issues as the DPP is a mandatory instrument in certain states but not in others. don't want a regulator to impose their own requirements on another regulator.
Carolynn_bernier: So, I have a short list of people that are interested in the DPP vocabulary work. I'm just going to put Rio here.
Ingo_Wolf: Yeah, sure.
Carolynn_bernier: Any people here that I don't know and who is interested in this work?
Carsten_Stöcker: I think we can put you as But I guess excellent.
Carolynn_bernier: And anybody else here that is not on my list and who should be for me. I'm not sharing There is a Monica Noviki in the call that I Monica
Monika_Nowicki: Yes. Hi.
Carsten_Stöcker: Monica, you need to introduce yourself. Yeah.
Monika_Nowicki: Yes, I think I introduced myself. the camera is not really working. Sorry for that again. That was the last time as well. I think you introduced me already once and Karan was as well in a call. I'm from Bunisan Saiga and we are currently applying the membership for the W33 as and yes, I'm considering Carson. I think that if you guys are involved in the DPP, it should be fine at this point for the business wallet, it would be maybe fine. And I'm not sure I've seen that you also have a W3C payment group.
Carolynn_bernier: What the
Monika_Nowicki: Are you involved in that case as well? This group or No. Okay. Hi.
Phil_Archer: I don't think there's much crossover here, And hello, by but there's certainly a very active payments group across W3C as a whole.
Phil_Archer: So it may not be this particular group of people, but there's a lot
Rigo_Wenning: And once you joined we can introduce you to Ian Jacobs…
Rigo_Wenning: who will then coach you on payment.
Monika_Nowicki: All right,…
Monika_Nowicki: That sounds good. So, yeah, what do you think for DPP joining? Or maybe first it's enough if Ingo from your side is joining. Currently,
Carsten_Stöcker: I think it's okay when you focus on the business world.
Carsten_Stöcker: Absolutely. …
Carolynn_bernier: …
Carolynn_bernier: the focus is more on the wallet more. Okay. So, I don't put you Yeah. Yeah.
Carsten_Stöcker: is interesting because we have Steve Capel and Steve Capel from UN United Nation Transparency Portal. He's doing DPPS and business wallets. And I think with Monica we will kind of more align with Steve Capel when he's doing recognized entities. Yeah. What we call let's say legal person identity. He calls recognized entities.
Carsten_Stöcker: And I think we will address kind of let's say the intersections with Steve.
Monika_Nowicki: You can al or…
Monika_Nowicki: you can add me to both groups and I will try to participate and give some input or take some output. also possible. Mhm.
Carolynn_bernier: And in general, the work on the business wallet probably needs to be more attached to the work on recognized entities. I'm saying this for you, Karsten. yeah, we agree.
Carsten_Stöcker: Yep. Yep.
Carolynn_bernier: By the way, you were not there in Brussels on the 4th…
Ivan_Herman: Thank you.
Carolynn_bernier: where we talked about recognized entities with Steve and…
Carolynn_bernier: Manu and Da and it was a big shame that you were not there.
Monika_Nowicki: No.
Carolynn_bernier: It was a shame because this is really fundamental to everything we want to do including for DPP.
Carolynn_bernier: So somehow the DPP vocab and…
Carolynn_bernier: wallet vocab and the recognize entity work that has to be very close.
Carolynn_bernier: All of that has to be very close.
Rigo_Wenning: Yes, because it makes legal assertions and…
Rigo_Wenning: they are related to each other.
Carolynn_bernier: Yes. Yes. Okay.
Rigo_Wenning: So that as it is not much overhead to actually participate, I encourage Monica to participate. it will
Monika_Nowicki: But I was not sure my understanding was that I can't really join…
Monika_Nowicki: if we are not participating. in a W3C yet with a contract that is signated and…
Ivan_Herman: Monica, aren't you already an invited expert for the time that the signature happens.
Monika_Nowicki: it just takes a bit of time a bit too long but that's good to yep.
Rigo_Wenning: Yeah, but that's negotiation.
Rigo_Wenning: We can probably help with that. Let me see if it's just under signature then maybe we Ivan and I we can me Yeah, exactly.
Ivan_Herman: you are.
Phil_Archer: No, she's But you could be.
Carolynn_bernier: You have to apply.
Phil_Archer: That's what we're saying.
Ivan_Herman: No, but you could be indeed.
Phil_Archer: Yeah. There's a phone. I
Ivan_Herman: That's a usual approach we take to be formally correct that you join as an invited expert…
Ivan_Herman: until your institution becomes a member and then you've automatically converted so to say.
Monika_Nowicki: and who can invite me as an expert.
Monika_Nowicki: Yes. Yes. Carolynn bernier:
Carolynn_bernier: There's a form. By the way,…
Carolynn_bernier: several people in the European Commission have requested to join as invited expert the VC working group
Rigo_Wenning: Yeah, which is Ivant asked me about…
Rigo_Wenning: if we have a very special relation to the European Commission.
Rigo_Wenning: We are part of this multistakeholder platform and all of that. so the people from the commission will be able to join
<Phil_Archer> @monika, see Invited Experts | W3C
Ivan_Herman: It's already done. ego. it was officially accepted this morning by me.
Ivan_Herman: It's his stats turn to physically join the group but he has been approved.
<Phil_Archer> We'll approve your application really quickly but please state that you're in the process of joining. Then it's easy.
Carolynn_bernier: Excellent.
Carolynn_bernier: Okay. So for people who were not present on the third, we had a few very interesting and important conversations. The first one is the following.
<Monika_Nowicki> will do so, thank you
VCWG Scope And Vocabulary Support
Carolynn_bernier: Is this working group the right place to discuss the design of use case specific vocabularies including the DPP and including business wallets because VC working group is about the VC technology itself not on the actual applications of the technology to specific use cases. So in principle the answer is no.
Carolynn_bernier: However the problem is that many VC user groups including us don't know where else to go and usually when people working on VC technologies they knock on the door of the W3C saying I'm interested in VC technology and this is a good place where you can meet international stakeholders also developing use cases on the technology so it's kind of a natural meeting ground and this is why we're actually in this meeting together all of us because there's no international DPP standardization body yet and I don't know if the upcoming one in ISOIC JTC5 is actually going to do such
Carolynn_bernier: work and so that means that many vocabularies don't have the appropriate homes yet and so people are knocking on W3C door asking them to host their vocabularies even if it's fundamentally not the appropriate place for them for that so the question the conversations went around so knowing that there's many people who want to vocabularies for VC applications and don't have support for
Carolynn_bernier: that how can the VC worker group support those groups especially when we're talking about use cases that are international and crossborder in nature so we're talking about diplomas identities DPSPs trade documents all sorts of things like that so there is a number of things that we agree like that if I understand the conversation properly that we agreed upon and that the VC working group, not this task force but the VC working group can and should support in proving that these vocabularies can work in a VC world.
Carolynn_bernier: We discussed the idea of implementing a registry for verifiable credential vocabularies with the implications that might be perceived as an endorsement by W3C and that does need AC approval. We discussed that we would need to define what are the qualification criteria for such a registry for being registered into a registry. What would be the meta metadata of the registry metrics? Would we use such a registry to track vocabulary use usage etc. we discussed also the idea of proposing of creating a test suite for these vocabularies to prove there are W3CVCDM compatible.
Ivan_Herman: Perfect.
Carolynn_bernier: we discuss create the possible creation of an W3C interest group for use case vocabulary designers in which case our work on DPP vocabulary design would go to that work but it would not become a W3C recommendation and then Phil asked what would be the purpose of having such vocabularies as a W3C recommendation with the purpose to move this vocabulary work to ISO in a later stage. I hope I correctly summarized the discussions on this aspect. Phil Ivan…
Carolynn_bernier: if I did not
Phil_Archer: No. I think you did,…
Phil_Archer: Caroline, and thank you for summarizing that. It makes it nice and clear. I think what I'm not 100% sure of is the method by which we prove that these vocabulies can work in a VCDM.
Carolynn_bernier: Mhm.
Phil_Archer: For me, which may not be your decision, that's a document that says if you want to create a DPP in a VC, here's how you do it. and these are the vocabularies that we use. that's how I see things happening. So again, what you're showing is how the work that particularly you've done in Surplus for DPP and how Carson and Monica have done in Web Build for the wallet stuff. this is how you use VCDM to do this stuff, but not necessarily developing the vocabies themselves.
Ivan_Herman: So in addition to what Phil said, I think there was one aspect that we did discuss as well is that we have to prove that DPPs in general sorry that VCDM is good enough for DPSPs. that situation did come up whether the current set of properties that the VCDM defines is enough for DPPS or whether there are things that the use cases that we have worked on so far did not cover and we may have to extend the VCDM in some cases this is something that this task force should
Ivan_Herman: explore and possibly yay or and that means that the test suite that you have there on the force bullet item is also in some sense. It's not only a test case for the vocabulary at hand,…
Ivan_Herman: but it also, if we have a valid DPP vocabulary from somewhere in the world and…
Carolynn_bernier: Mhm. Yes.
Ivan_Herman: putting it into VCDM is really difficult and goes through some awkward intermediary solution, then we have a problem. We being the VCDM And of course the same arises for the other group.
Carolynn_bernier: So, if I put together the things that are for the VC working group.
Carolynn_bernier: and then what is appropriate for our own working subgroup task force DPPTF. So this is work for the working group and…
Carolynn_bernier: so this goes here.
Ivan_Herman: No, the first item is really something that we have to prove.
Ivan_Herman: So the working group No,…
Carolynn_bernier: This is what I put here. Ivan Herman:
Ivan_Herman: no, no. I'm sorry. I'm talking about this working group should prove that this vocab can work with the DCDM. We are the ones who raise issues about that and then the solution has to be proposed to the BCV working group which does or does not accept it.
Phil_Archer: Yes, but Ivan Karen has basically copied the text. it isn't instead it's been copied.
Phil_Archer: So it does say what you wanted to say. Although I think probably take that line out from the BCWG site.
Carolynn_bernier: Which line?
Phil_Archer: I think the first bullet point under VCWG is a duplicate of what you've got, I think, correctly, under DPP task force. Carolynn bernier:
Carolynn_bernier: No, no, no. Because these vocabularies are for use cases vocabularies not just DPPS any use case diploma whatever any VC use case you can imagine this already exists Okay.
Phil_Archer: I see. All right. yes.
Phil_Archer: Those already exist for the model as it currently stands. Yes. Yes.
Phil_Archer: So yes. Absolutely. for testing that a VC meets the VCDM that exists. Yes. Yeah. You wouldn't get a wreck without that these days.
Ivan_Herman: I'm not sure…
Ivan_Herman: what you're talking about here.
Phil_Archer: Hasn't Manu got 101 test suites for everything?
Ivan_Herman: Yeah, but those are as far as I remember pretty example kind of vocabularies for the structure of ECDM itself. Here we are talking about real use cases of the real world are not usable with VCDM or…
Carolynn_bernier: Mhm. Yeah.
Ivan_Herman: to put it in another way which are not for…
Phil_Archer: Okay, I'll take it back.
Ivan_Herman: which the VC VDM is or is not appropriate structurally.
Carolynn_bernier: So this does not exist actually…
Ivan_Herman: No. for nondPP vocabularies that is correct…
Carolynn_bernier: but okay so this is not work for our task force. This work for the working group as a whole. Yeah. Exactly. We agree.
Ivan_Herman: but we are the DPP is how should I say universal enough and important enough and deployed enough to be the perfect use case score etc. Yeah.
Carolynn_bernier: We agree.
Carolynn_bernier: So the question for Mr. Winning Rio, are you still there or are you off getting coffee?
Rigo_Wenning: Of course I'm here.
Carolynn_bernier: Okay, the question I have for you, Mr. for winning is the move to ISO.
Ivan_Herman: But we are not talking about Rex.
Rigo_Wenning: Is a decision of the working group.
Carolynn_bernier: Yes. But to move to ISO,…
Carolynn_bernier: you need a wreck.
Rigo_Wenning: Yes. Why?
Phil_Archer: Yeah.
Carolynn_bernier: We're not talking about Rex. You were not paying attention.
Rigo_Wenning: Is I wanted to intervene earlier but I didn't because I wanted to see the flow.
Rigo_Wenning: The vocabulary thing is not a technical issue because anybody here can write down any vocabulary using some LLM or to facilitate that The value of the vocabulary is not technical. It's the fact that people sit together and make an agreement to use certain terms and not wildly different terms that then create a lot of effort for mappings and things. so if you follow the W3C process the social agreement has some kind of end point. This can be a recommendation a note something else.
<Phil_Archer> Notes the time :-(
Rigo_Wenning: Yeah I note the time and I make quickly. so the problem is I think this is very important in international trade in the trips agreement and So you need a recommendation for us to use our public available specification pass submission status in ISO to get an ISO number on any recommendation we want.
Rigo_Wenning: But we need a recommendation.
Carolynn_bernier: And this is…
Carolynn_bernier: where we still need to agree on what is the focus of this group. Is it to create a recommendation? Yes or no? your hand is up. Ivan, we agree in principle. No. Ah.
Ivan_Herman: I think even one step before that is it k is the task of this task force to create a vocabulary really in the first No,…
Ivan_Herman: I am saying that to Rio. and the way the discussion went in Brussels is that there are zillions of DPP vocabularies in the world and so to create yet another one is a typical standardization trap that is caricaturerized in number of places. So the only thing we would maybe do eventually possibly if the moon is right enough is that there are need for some properties to bind the various DPPS together.
Ivan_Herman: Maybe there are some missing links that would come up if we look at the various DPP vocabularies, but the probability seems to be low. But there is no reason for us to create yet another DPP vocabulary. it doesn't work that way. that's why we got to the temporary conclusion I agree is that we will not develop really vocabulary in which case there is no recommendation at hand and I think the original question of Caroline was if Vietnam comes with their TPP vocabulary and they put it into the registry of W3C which
Ivan_Herman: we are talking about can that vocabulary go to ISO and the answer to that is probably not directly because it's not a recommendation and therefore we have no influence over that being an ISO standard
Carolynn_bernier: And we may end up with several DPP vocabs in the vocabulary registry.
Rigo_Wenning: Nothing.
Carolynn_bernier: Karen, your hand is up.
Vocabulary Mapping And Bridging Exercises
Carsten_Stöcker: I think we might want kind of to do simple mapping inventory exercise.
Carsten_Stöcker: So a vocabulary bill of material or whatever. So what vocabularies do we have and how could they possibly work together these different vocabularies I think this would be a no regret move we don't need to register something or do but at least to identify what are the five key vocabularies that are in the market right now and how can this work together and this brings us then back to the bridging vocabulary but also then to the question
Carsten_Stöcker: to provide some guidelines so when a vocabulary is in place how can you bridge it but how can you make sure it could possibly be endorsed yeah and this was something we discussed with Steve Capel like he said my god so let's have this vocabulary and this group needs a vocabulary it's kind of supply and demand also yeah so there is a group that has demand for vocabulary but they don't have the technical skills so can one of the vocabularies brought to M and they endorse it because they have authority in the domain to endorse something. I think this is also some very practical activities to facilitate a bit of a supply and demand dialogue to have some early signs of success. Yeah.
Carsten_Stöcker: about some early matching of people who have some vocabulary,…
Ivan_Herman: What's that?
Carsten_Stöcker: people who need vocabulary and have the authority kind of to endorse something. And I think this is all related to do a mapping exercise in the first step.
Carolynn_bernier: So the good news Karsten is that Eva and…
Carolynn_bernier: In a few weeks we have a publication on this topic a mapping.
Carsten_Stöcker: Unbelievable.
Carolynn_bernier: Yeah, isn't that great? we're writing a scientific publication. the deadline is end of June. So you could see it's going to be ready. we're mapping and comparing existing DPP vocabularies, six at least and I didn't include the Chinese and there will probably be a national DPP vocabulary every single country.
Carolynn_bernier: And in the publication we already listing the different technical solutions to manage such diversity. Okay, Ro, your hand is up.
Rigo_Wenning: Yeah, I want to clarify a bit what I meant. So first of all we departed from two assumptions. The first assumption was that W3C is on a global level and what the intention of this higher level or…
Ivan_Herman: Okay.
Rigo_Wenning: upper level ontology or higher level agreement would be to say hey there is movements in the US and the common ground we can cover the common ground the common ground but not in the sense Ivan of XKCD9
Rigo_Wenning: 927. so yet another vocabulary but then comes The second assumption is that the DPP set cabulin is a knowledge graph. That means we want to join arbitrary other information data into our graph. And in order for that to function, we need this kind of basic thing that can say I'm now using the battery vocabulary from the battery passport, which is maybe something that link data does out of the box, but it doesn't hurt to pro provide something that you can give to ISO and that
Rigo_Wenning: then gets from there. The third reason why W3C is because if you go to ISO and you make that vocabulary you pay a,000 bucks.
Rigo_Wenning: That means all the SMMES will be excluded.
Carolynn_bernier: ISO publishes vocabularies and…
Carolynn_bernier: ontologies for free.
Ivan_Herman: Is that
<Phil_Archer> xkcd: Standards is a URL stamped inside my eyelids
Carolynn_bernier: They have a fair pro there that's probably a PDF. You can pay if you want to, but that publishes web vocabularies. I can give you an example if you want. Eva, your hand is up.
Eva_Blomqvist: Yeah, but just a comment on what you said Caroline about our e mapping exercise there. So I was just thinking about how I mean that's a restricted space in a paper and I'm not sure how much we are covering everything and as you said okay we're not looking at the Chinese you said and…
Carolynn_bernier: Yeah, I entirely agree, Ian.
Eva_Blomqvist: these kind of things.
Eva_Blomqvist: So maybe here the scope is wider than what we are writing. So could still be the place for an extended mapping exercise of this group.
Ivan_Herman: Yeah, I am a bit worried that we are discussing things that we do not know yet really.
Ivan_Herman: We have to see first of all I would like to see the output of your work Ava and Caroline. and see whether the combination of various DPPs in one VC because that's what we are talking about. Is it something that requires anything more than what's already there?
Ivan_Herman: If it requires anything more then we can discuss whether this is general to the VC or whether this is a pro it is special to DPPs but until I see them we cannot define that. my hope is that the VC structure gives enough to do that but I may be wrong but I don't want to decide it now.
Carolynn_bernier: Mhm. So you're coming back to this point here.
Carolynn_bernier: I don't think that we want to put different DPP vocabularies in the same VC. I don't think that this is what we're talking about.
Carolynn_bernier: However, what we discussed in Brussels on the fourth on recognized entities and the need that Steve mentioned to move up the trust chain to be able to say I have been recognized by that entity which is the opposite direction of the recognized entity work which is I recognize this party for per it's the other direction it's Thank.
Ivan_Herman: Yeah, but I think that that was well accepted by the recognized entity group. So that we can take it as it will happen. It's not yet there, but it will happen. So we should not be worried about that.
Carolynn_bernier: I see Ted made a comment in the really What's XKCD?
Ted_Guild: response to your observation about ISO work. most of it's still behind pay walls which is really yes and the ontologists behind intelligent transportation systems and smart cities basically leak stuff through GitHub and have reportly asked to be able to make stuff available or…
<Ted_Guild> ISO Intelligent Transportation Systems and ISO SmartCities ontologists leak their vocabularies through GitHub and have asked permission to make them public - it's been some time and not sure if they got a formal response - ISO specs being behind paywall propagate the XKCD problem
Ted_Guild: published through ISO and it's been some time I could reach out to them again but it's a source of frustration
Ted_Guild: It leads to the XKCD problem that's well known by Rego, Ivonne, others myself as a recurring theme unfortunately. so …
Ivan_Herman: You look at the pointer that Phil put in.
Carolynn_bernier: Okay. that. Yeah.
Ivan_Herman: It's a recurring joke. it's only partly a joke among all people on standardization.
<Eva_Blomqvist> I will have to leave in 5 min, but I guess this discussion will continue in 2 weeks then (if next week is wallets)
Ted_Guild: it's not funny at the same time. Yes. So fairly new to this group and…
Phil_Archer: And we all know It's a number that we just have in our heads all the time.
Ted_Guild: mostly in listen mode and highly sympathetic doing something similar incoa where we're trying to create we decided to go with knowledge graphs as more approachable semantic web technology and bring in different domain experts and try to work with them to create schemas and it's difficult. It's the same thing here and we also agreed in Kisa to accept Menu's work for the California Department of Motor Vehicles and to work on that as far as registration title driver's license and there's some that I'm eager to do around vehicles.
Ted_Guild: And so the problem is and I've also heard discussion of registries around ontologies at W3C for many years as so I think I don't know what the answer is. more in listen mode as I said it might be trying to find who to partner with as subject matter experts for these different areas these other organizations and figure out how to do things in public whereas the interest group this task force will ask as a act as a sort of a consultancy and try to get some consistency across these virtual credential space DPPS I mean
Ted_Guild: That's maybe the best case scenario. It's not easy. but you have a solution that you want to get people to adopt. They're going to find they're not going to be versed in this. They're going to stumble onto various things. so there'll be this multitude of approaches so for driver's licenses for example there are several already addition to what Manny has done so it's not a perfect world but I think if the more we can get prominent examples out there success stories and they could see the support that they sort of testimonies about the support they received from this group then you might be able to get
Ted_Guild: and those other organizations with subject matter experts to come here to work with this activity,…
Ted_Guild: this task force.
Carolynn_bernier: Yeah, I agree.
Developing Guidance Documents For DPPs
Carolynn_bernier: And this is why I have a tendency to agree with Ivan on should we develop yet another DPP vocab at this point. I think it's too early, but we should expect to be Ted was saying, support communities who want help in developing vocabs. Ro, your hand is up.
Rigo_Wenning: Yeah so first of all remark no we have imagine and remember that a complex machinery like Ted said the car it will be a combination of 100 DPPs. but the ensembler will then have to be made into a That means we have shells of verifiable credentials all around. so this is not simple. The second risk that we have is remember our famous discussion with Dean Cowolene. databases are great. Please use mine.
Rigo_Wenning: there will be a gazillion vocabularies and databases and stuff out there but they will not follow the link data paradigm that means mixing in DPP vocabularies into VCDM will be almost impossible so what we need to do here is even Ian we can have a primer why shouldn't this be a recommendation when we have a primer saying if you want to play here, this is the requirements that you need and you put that into ISO. I don't know. I'm not talking about saying this is a battery and that's how many kilowatt it has and so on. You can import that. but the requirement to say, hey, if you import it this way.
Carolynn_bernier: So this is what we're talking about a guidance document for using the BCDM for any form of DPP issuance. This is what you're talking about. This is…
Carolynn_bernier: what we need to create.
Rigo_Wenning: and combinability.
Carolynn_bernier: But this is more like a guidance document.
Ivan_Herman: Yes, let's decide that when we see it.
Rigo_Wenning: And that can have naughty technical issues. Don't expect from me to contradict Ivan.
Ivan_Herman: As I said before, I don't like this discussion when we don't know…
Carolynn_bernier: this right.
Ivan_Herman: what we are talking about.
Rigo_Wenning: We're not going to happen.
Carolynn_bernier: So I think we have a lot of work already before we even talk about should we design yet another DPP vocabulary.
Carolynn_bernier: I propose we put this discussion on hold until we finish doing all of that. All right. Let's All right. So, yes.
Publication Licensing And Accessibility
Ivan_Herman: a very practical question. I'm sorry. because with scientific papers you may never know will your paper with AA be in the public. Ivan Herman:
Carolynn_bernier: Not until, Eva, you and I. First it has to be written and then submitted and then reviewed and then accepted and then published at the conference and then it has to be up published in an open-source journal.
Ivan_Herman: That's that the last qu…
Carolynn_bernier: All of this will take until March of 2007.
Ivan_Herman: then now I understand…
Carolynn_bernier: All of that.
Ivan_Herman: but your last point was my question whether it will be public it will be published as in open or not in scientific publishing this is a big deal I have been involved with this in my life a Okay.
Carolynn_bernier: Under what license? I don't know.
Rigo_Wenning: Hey, what?
Carolynn_bernier: I can actually give you an example. I can tell you. maybe Rigo can check the license right away because we published a paper, but we would share the draft with you guys ahead of time.
Ivan_Herman: Yeah, a preprint is always possible.
Carolynn_bernier: So I'm just looking for a link so I go can check.
Carolynn_bernier: Here I'm going to put the link in the chat. It's Elsa.
Carolynn_bernier: It's wanting to know…
Ivan_Herman: Ouch.
Carolynn_bernier: if I am as they Yeah,…
Rigo_Wenning: Okay.
Ivan_Herman: Maybe things have changed in the past few years,…
Rigo_Wenning: No further discussion needed. If El then no.
Phil_Archer: Yes, it tells me. That's all you need to know.
Rigo_Wenning: Unfortunately I know from my work in the Tesla
Ivan_Herman: but as a fear has always been the biggest problem in the publication world.
Carolynn_bernier: I don't know. but anyways, as Eva said, I mean we're going to so we're writing the paper. We're submitting inif 15 days and from that it's a starting point for a more extended mapping exercise.
Ivan_Herman: No, it's an open access computer science proceedings. It might be okay. It might be okay.
<Carolynn_bernier> https://
Rigo_Wenning: Yeah, you can download the full issue…
Rigo_Wenning: then it might be okay. but then it still says…
Rigo_Wenning: if you take text from there it may be. Okay.
Carolynn_bernier: We're not going to take text.
Carolynn_bernier: It's just a starting point for us.
Ivan_Herman: Yeah, it's okay.
Carolynn_bernier: We're not going to take Okay. Ivan Herman:
Ivan_Herman: We are fine. So sorry I raised that but I bears a lot of scars from the publication All right.
Carolynn_bernier: So now that we agreed that this is the work that we want to do. I started to work on this very first topic which is why use a VC for DPPs at all. especially since not all DVPs are issued as VCs. What are the advantages inconveniences of that?
Carolynn_bernier: Then there's the topic of applicability of the VCDM model and then defining what are use cases. So I think we have a lot of work and I would like to start structuring a document online that we could use as a basis for throwing ideas. And I think the first topic I would like to put on the table is why issue DPB as a V VC at all? Why would someone consider such a thing? Right? And I used the time in Brussels to question the expertise in the room and we got a number of reasons why we would want to use a DPP a VC for a DPSP.
Carolynn_bernier: I would like to expand on this list or refine this list but what I want to do right now is I want to create a document an outline of a document and Ian created a template for a you call it a DPP uses you created this it's empty for the moment okay so the idea is we move away from the common document that we had started to work we had anticipated working with the wallet people.
Carsten_Stöcker: Let people out.
Carolynn_bernier: We remove ourselves from the wallet use cases document work and we focus on DPP work and what I would like is to have an outline of this document. Karsten your hand is up.
Carsten_Stöcker: Yeah, I want to say that but this goes back a little bit later that we also should look in the AI topic. Yeah, when you consume verifiable credential semantic models with AI, you have much stronger capability and less hallucination and better reasoning. But this is …
Carolynn_bernier: But that has nothing to do with verifiable credentials. Sorry. Okay.
Carsten_Stöcker: it has but I think that that sounds about the benefits but we can park it for now. Just want to mention it. Yeah. Yes.
Carolynn_bernier: Then if you want to add a Y issue, if you want to add something about AI here,…
Carsten_Stöcker: Yes. Yes. Mhm.
Carolynn_bernier: then this is…
Monika_Nowicki: Yes.
Carolynn_bernier: where you would throw the idea. Fill your handers up.
Phil_Archer: Yeah, I just wanted to pick up on a side issue that Rigo put in the chat and…
Using GitHub For Task Force Collaboration
Phil_Archer: it's an important one because you're throwing out I think very sensibly and wisely a load of thoughts about what we should be thinking about those are issues and for a lot of people in this group are not used to the way W3C works and how we do things. If you'll allow me, I'm going to take over the screen just briefly and take you to this group's GitHub repo which is accessible from the task force, but it's here. And so, for example, I'm going to raise an issue now.
Phil_Archer: I may or may not get to the end of it because I don't want to preempt what you're doing, but why should any DPP ever be expressed as a VC? That's an issue.
Rigo_Wenning: Phil,…
Ivo_Ladenius: We don't feel like
Rigo_Wenning: we don't see your screen. We only see DPP business wallet tools.
Phil_Archer: All then I'm just gonna stop sharing. so there's another button there actually.
Carolynn_bernier: H. …
Carolynn_bernier: there he goes. I think this is what you mean.
Phil_Archer: There you go. So I'm just creating an issue here.
Carolynn_bernier: Okay. Mhm.
Phil_Archer: I don't know if I actually need to complete it, but the important point is people you Carol and…
Phil_Archer: other people are raising thoughts. So capture those in an issue. Then we can discuss them and then they then resolve into action later on.
Carolynn_bernier: Yes, but that's okay.
Carolynn_bernier: But then if okay,…
Carolynn_bernier: how does these issues get transformed into documents?
Phil_Archer: That's a task.
Phil_Archer: But what it allows is the members of the group to discuss things away from the meeting. Most of the discussion in these task forces happens outside the meeting in those GitHub issues discussions. So in a meeting like this, you then say there's been a lot of discussion about this issue. Are you ready to resolve it? And then come up with a resolution and so on.
Phil_Archer: you haven't got time in a one-hour call every other week talking about your subject to resolve all the issues.
Carolynn_bernier: I agree.
Carolynn_bernier: I agree.
Phil_Archer: So, you have to do it asynchronously. So, use the GitHub issue tracker to raise those issues, discuss them.
Phil_Archer: And…
Phil_Archer: then on the calls, you might then decide, okay, we've discussed that enough. It's now closed. Whatever it may be,…
Carolynn_bernier: And then…
Carolynn_bernier: how does it get transformed into a document?
Phil_Archer: somebody has to write it. Sorry, that's a human action. Yes.
Rigo_Wenning: Close will do it.
Ivan_Herman: Yeah, there is no alternatism everywhere.
Carolynn_bernier: Okay. So I understand Phil the thing is the way I usually work is when I work collaboratively is that we collaborative write a document together.
Carolynn_bernier: This is why I was thinking of working Okay.
Ivan_Herman: Caroline,…
Ivan_Herman: that's when the wonderful word of pull request come in. That's exactly…
Phil_Archer: So Carolyn,…
Ivan_Herman: what Yeah.
Phil_Archer: write your document and we will help. And I think you might need help with Mark Gist. Why don't we do that? And then what you do, this is what all the tooling allows you to do. and so you're writing a document and you think, "Hang on a sec. What's the answer to that?" and you say, issue number whatever. And as you type you it automatically links to the GitHub issue and when a pull request resolves that issue it gets closed.
Phil_Archer: There's a lot of really smart stuff going on. But you're right with a collaborative document. Yes.
Carolynn_bernier: All right.
Carolynn_bernier: Yes. …
Ivan_Herman: Caroline, you don't have to understand and…
Ivan_Herman: master everything today, but we are here to help you get through Mhm.
Carolynn_bernier: But I think we succeeded in agreeing on the scope of…
Ingo_Wolf: Welcome.
Carolynn_bernier: what we want to do collectively. Now we just need to get cracking.
Phil_Archer: Yes. …
Carolynn_bernier: So I think Ivan I will take 30 minutes of your time in the coming days. You will teach me GitH GitHub and then we'll be set.
Ivan_Herman: Okay.
Carolynn_bernier: All Thank you. And I suggest we close this meeting with 3 minutes ahead of time…
Phil_Archer: are we not an hour over.
Carolynn_bernier: unless somebody has some H.
Phil_Archer: No, we're not half an hour over. I thought we were over. that's minus. Carolynn bernier:
Carolynn_bernier: No, no, no. It's great. Anybody else want to say something?
Phil_Archer: Sorry.
Rigo_Wenning: I want to filibuster until it's too late just to annoy Philip.
Phil_Archer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If I have another call now,…
Ivan_Herman: Exactly. they are in…
Carolynn_bernier: Ivan, do I have to put these slides somewhere?
Ivan_Herman: which format?
Ingo_Wolf: Thank you.
Carolynn_bernier: PowerPoint, but I can PDF them.
Ivan_Herman: PDF them and…
Ivan_Herman: and for the time being that's send them to me and I will put up on the web. Bye-bye.
Carolynn_bernier: Okay, thank you.
Monika_Nowicki: Thank you. Bye.
Ivo_Ladenius: Actually wrong,
Phil_Archer: thank you. Meeting ended after 02:12:09 👋 This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.
<Rigo_Wenning> transformation will be via Pull request to the document
<Carsten_Stöcker> Will be right back ...
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