Meeting minutes
Meeting Canceled
Phil_Archer: Looks like the meeting ain't happening.
Carolynn Bernier: Hello, Bill.
Phil_Archer: find my mute button. Hello. Hi.
Carolynn Bernier: Did everybody disconnect?
Phil_Archer: I joined only five minutes or so ago and…
Carolynn Bernier: Okay. Yes.
Phil_Archer: there was two of us here and so I thought things have been happening and then I saw your email. so I think it looks as if this week is not happening.
Carolynn Bernier: Sorry.
M.-A._Wolf: I joined earlier…
M.-A._Wolf: but there was nobody in the call so I left it just on and…
M.-A._Wolf: then I saw your email Mhm.
Carolynn Bernier: Okay. Yeah.
Phil_Archer: So, it happens…
Phil_Archer: because we're all busy people. I'm not going to It's just,
Carolynn Bernier: Then I have some work to do on the document before and I will rather communicate by email for the next steps.
Phil_Archer: Yep. Not yet,…
Carolynn Bernier: Did you see what we were doing?
Phil_Archer: but I need to…
Carolynn Bernier: Ju no you don't have to ask for any form of forgiveness of any kind.
Phil_Archer: because I've been away. So, I've been ignoring everything. So, forgive me.
Carolynn Bernier: I just wanted to just show you what it is that we're doing.
Phil_Archer: Please. Okay.
Product And Wallet Vocabularies Document
Carolynn Bernier: Path I'm just going to put the link to the document in the chat. So this is very very rough draft. I launched this work last week and…
Phil_Archer: Yeah. Mhm.
Carolynn Bernier: And we discussed it and I haven't so the link is in the chat. it's the rendered version of the document we're writing. And basically if you come down in the document the focus of the first question is why are VCs useful for DPSPs. Okay the second section is the focus of this working group.
M.-A._Wolf: Mhm.
Carolynn Bernier: So then this Suzanne posted a big figure and then there's a third section…
Phil_Archer: Right. Brilliant.
Carolynn Bernier: why is there an international DPP task force in W3C verifiable credentials working group and then se last section is DPP standard X compatible with VCDM okay so right now the focus is on section one why are VCs useful for DBPS and me trying to figure out how GitHub works. this is a bit difficult and so there's a few last week we did discuss this we did discuss this and I have some modifications to the document outline in particular to talk about are verifiable presentations useful for V DPPS yes no things like that.
Carolynn Bernier: So I do have some work to adapt the structure of the document, but at least it's a good starting point for having conversations about the content.
Phil_Archer: Yeah. Yes,…
Phil_Archer: which is fantastic and it is really good to see My goodness you've done a huge amount to get to this stage in such a short time. It's brilliant. it just hits so many buttons. The fact you've done this and…
Phil_Archer: the way you've done it, I think it answers all the key questions that we're going to get asked all the time. and it shows exactly what you're saying. it's the relevance is why the hell is this happening? What's it got to do with DPP? And I think that out it's brilliant.
Carolynn Bernier: Yeah. Yeah.
Carolynn Bernier: Okay.
Phil_Archer: It's really good.
Carolynn Bernier: …
Carolynn Bernier: this for the moment, it's just cut and paste for my notes, right? It's nothing huge. Yeah. Yeah.
Phil_Archer: Yeah, but it's done and…
Phil_Archer: based from your notes into a W3C space. So, I know you don't want to do it yet, but this is an official first public working draft, which can be barely different from what you've got here. It doesn't have to be, just once you've got those sections lined out, that alone is enough to say that here we are.
Carolynn Bernier: Yeah. Yeah. I agree.
Phil_Archer: Yeah. Yeah,…
Carolynn Bernier: And however, it is a note. So it by no means is a recommendation. So, we're not talking about first public work and draft of anything. We're just talking about this is a note.
Phil_Archer: I think notes have a first public working draft as well, I think. Although I stand to be corrected by people whose knowledge is more up to date than mine. But it's a pretty straightforward process. You're right. Obviously, there's a difference between a note and a rack, of course.
Carolynn Bernier: Mhm.
Phil_Archer: But I think even a note you need to go through the process and it's about the IP exclusions and all the rest of it to make sure no one saying you owe me 3 million euro…
Carolynn Bernier: Okay.
Phil_Archer: because you said That's the thing. it's about protecting all of us.
Carolynn Bernier: Is it strange?
Phil_Archer: And it's got your orchid ID as well. That's nice. yes, he's got your orchid ID. Yeah. Wow.
Carolynn Bernier: I provide I don't know. It did something automatic. I don't know. Somebody did something automatic and…
Phil_Archer: Yeah, it does a lot of that.
Carolynn Bernier: it worked.
Phil_Archer: So, I think Ivan has been helping but we are here to help and yes we can do this. Absolutely. Yeah.
M.-A._Wolf: Hello.
Phil_Archer: Okay.
Carolynn Bernier: Excellent. so That's all that I wanted to say.
Phil_Archer: And Mark Andre forgive me. we've actually spoken before. So hello, welcome along. do you two know each other?
Carolynn Bernier: So Mar Andre is part of the Serpass 2 team.
Phil_Archer: Great.
Carolynn Bernier: Marre is an expert in the modeling of life cycle analysis data.
Phil_Archer: Mhm.
Carolynn Bernier: He is part of the Serpass 2 team working in this aspect. He's also an expert. So he's worked with the commission for years and years also in recycled content topics around content.
M.-A._Wolf: Yeah, I was also almost 10 years now, eight years ago for European copper institute for the European copper in industry. I was in a standardization for recycle content and…
M.-A._Wolf: recyclability the EN4555 and 4557 standards but my main line of work is indeed life cycle assessment and I moved into digital product passports a few years ago as well.
Carolynn Bernier: And so Phil,…
Carolynn Bernier: so just Marre for you, Phil was part of Surpass One so I had the pleasure of working with Phil a lot during Surpass And Phil is my linked data professor.
Carolynn Bernier: So yeah.
Phil_Archer: God help us.
Carolynn Bernier: I'm his student basically. All right. and…
Phil_Archer: For goodness sake. Yes. Right. Right.
Carolynn Bernier: just Phil so that you understand something very important in surpass 2 we have created an ontology for life cycle analysis data the problem with the life cycle analysis data is that it is highly non-interoperable okay and it is designed to be that way by LCA software vendors who want to keep LCA data in data ecosystem and…
Phil_Archer: Listen, Right. Where?
Carolynn Bernier: not make it interoperable. Mar Andre created I don't know how many years ago we lost him. The ILCD data format which is an attempt to make LCA data interoperable between LCA software vendors and today is the closest thing to an interoperable data format for LCA data. so he created this 10 15 20 years ago I don't know when okay and it's a proprietary file format okay and now the idea is we have created an ontology for data which all of the meta data for LCA model data modeling provides all the fair vocabularies and all that to turn it into something more modern.
Life Cycle Analysis Data Interoperability
Phil_Archer: Mhm. Yeah.
Carolynn Bernier: And the important thing for the DPP is the DPP should be able to carry data related to the environmental impact of whatever product it's talking about. And this means that this is So the DPP should be able to present LCA result data in interoperable ways with vocabularies and all that. And I think that W3C so this is even more specific use case than DPP it's LCA data in DPP and…
Carolynn Bernier: this requires standardization. You see what I mean?
Phil_Archer: Yes. Yes,…
Phil_Archer: I do. so…
Phil_Archer: if it's essentially tied to a particular vendor that No. Right.
Carolynn Bernier: No, no,…
Carolynn Bernier: no, no, no, no, no. All LCA software vendors, they sell platforms that you can use to build models for your process or your product and calculate impact categories ification pro carbon footprint and all those things, right? So there's 26 different categories of environmental impacts that you can model and…
Phil_Archer: Right. Nothing. Right.
Carolynn Bernier: the software vendors what they do is they help you build a model for your process and your product and they help you connect what we call life cycle data for the constituents of your product. So it takes in that many grams of gold or stuff like that and links it the impact data for the gold, right? And so the platform what it does it helps you build the model and you import the data usually not interoperable. So you also have to purchase the data from the software vendor in order to be able to use it and…
Carolynn Bernier: to make your impact calculations which then you can stick in a DPP. Okay, that data.
Phil_Archer: Yeah. …
Carolynn Bernier: So today we have a big b LCA data interoperability problem with software vendors resisting the interoperability…
Phil_Archer: so Right.
Carolynn Bernier: but a need to present environmental impact data in interoperable ways in DBBS. Mhm. That's fine.
Phil_Archer: So you can only then if it sounds to me and I realize all I'm trying to do is to reflect back what you said and I may have misunderstood some of it. there's that interoperability layer. There's that presentation layer.
Phil_Archer: the input to which is almost a black box cuz it's this proprietary thing and they don't want to let it go. so yes the group could with little process publish something again as a note that would say here is…
Phil_Archer: how you can present this LCA data within a DPP show this data here are some terms we suggest here's…
Carolynn Bernier: Mhm.
Phil_Archer: here's how we suggest you do it
Carolynn Bernier: Mhm. Yes.
Phil_Archer: But obviously you can't go anywhere near the proprietary stuff behind the scenes without that company saying you can or that organization saying you can. But yeah, you could certainly do a document that said, here's how you could do that. And it sounds as if Mark Andre would be very well placed to do that.
Carolynn Bernier: So, it's a kind of a use case within a use case.
Phil_Archer: Yeah, I can see that. Yeah. Yeah. but the group can publish as many notes as it wants. There's absolutely so and…
Carolynn Bernier: Yeah. …
Phil_Archer: and if it's helpful to do that if it's helpful to have a reference document on a w3.org
Phil_Archer: namespace which it often is that might be sufficient and if that is sufficient to meet the use case do it great that's no problem it only becomes a thing as we've discussed before if you actually need to get to an ISO standard then you're talking Rex and process and goodness know what else How would that happen?
Carolynn Bernier: I think that the LCA ontology that we're building in Serbus 2 could definitely become an ISO standard. so if the W3C LCA ontology if that made sense or what we're missing today Phil is always the same problem. We're missing a global association that should be doing this work.
Carolynn Bernier: It does not exist. Okay? It's always the same problem.
Phil_Archer: Right. Right.
Carolynn Bernier: So knock on the door at W3C. I have a global interoperability use case. Can you host it for me while we wait for the global digitalization symposium right to be created right always the same problem Yeah.
Phil_Archer: Yes, it is. but to get you so maybe I'm asking I don't know the answer to this. Would it be helpful then to do the note that we just talked about?
Phil_Archer: So here is producers and…
Carolynn Bernier: Yes. …
Phil_Archer: it's a note and…
Carolynn Bernier: yes. Exactly.
Phil_Archer: then okay if you want this to become a formally recognized by regulator as an ISO standard then these are the steps you need to take. no. In other words, it's show and tell rather than just saying, it' be a nice idea and arm waving." But yeah, it sounds as if you've already got you and Mark Andre particularly, you've already got the information. It's a question of formatting and putting the document and going through the lightweight process of publishing a note.
Carolynn Bernier: And see that it does make sense to put this data in a W3C verifiable credential because all of these are claims,…
Carolynn Bernier: right? Exactly.
Phil_Archer: Right. Yeah.
ISO Greenhouse Gas Protocol Joint Working Group
Phil_Archer: Yeah. Based on whatever they're telling you they base it on. Yes. Which reminds me, you're not talking about carbon footprint there, but I've been roped into a new ISO group,…
Carolynn Bernier: Mhm. No.
Phil_Archer: the name of which I can't remember. do you have any association with ISO GHGP joint working group which is starting next week?
Carolynn Bernier: G HGP.
Phil_Archer: Let me show you.
Carolynn Bernier: Do you have any reference?
Phil_Archer: Yeah. I'll let me hang on.
Phil_Archer: Just let me share my screen so I can show you what I'm talking about. I got entire screen. Just do that and click that button. And then I can go to Where was it? Yeah. Greenhouse gas protocol. I'm not quite sure.
Phil_Archer: The introduction to me came via World Business Council for Sustainable Development who they're them.
Carolynn Bernier: Mhm. Yeah.
Carolynn Bernier: Yeah. That's the WV SBD or something like Yeah.
Phil_Archer: And they have their packed model…
Carolynn Bernier: Yeah. Yeah.
Phil_Archer: which so that's…
Carolynn Bernier: Okay.
Phil_Archer: where this has come from. So there's a meeting next this week I've got to go to which is an orientation. They've got a hybrid meeting next week being held in Seoul…
Carolynn Bernier: Mhm. I wonder…
Phil_Archer: which I'm not going to.
Phil_Archer: No, not go the soul. Sorry. Yeah.
Carolynn Bernier: if this is not at the organization there can you go down a little bit? introduction. Yes. wait to go back. accounting.
Phil_Archer: What? sure.
Carolynn Bernier: So it's private and I think it's at the organization level. It's not at the product level. Can you continue go down? stuff. Yeah. We don't care about global car carbon accounting.
Phil_Archer: And so all I'm doing in this Right.
Carolynn Bernier: Corporate product and project. here you have mandated to harmonize global standards for corporate product and project accounting. So they're going to be at the corporate product and so the product level is relevant to what I was talking to you about putting carbon data but you see greenhouse is only carbon right whereas LCA goes much beyond just carbon yeah so this is relevant to our
Carolynn Bernier: work and corporate product and…
Carolynn Bernier: project emissions that if you have a public reference to this work yeah and…
Phil_Archer: I try and…
Phil_Archer: where they might have something. it's ISO, so it's all behind closed doors. You have no idea who's doing what. there's got to be something like a website or something. I'm sure I can send you these.
Carolynn Bernier: these slides you can't share.
Phil_Archer: Yeah. No problem. Yeah. Yeah. Carolynn Bernier:
Carolynn Bernier: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. …
Phil_Archer: Yeah. …
Carolynn Bernier: so I can ask our LCA ontologists, so Marandre and Fatima, if they can le packed level greenhouse gas type of disclosures.
Phil_Archer: that's not done. At least I have a draft. so before I send forward that email, let me show you where it is. I did do this is how I got in interested.
Phil_Archer: So pacted is not a link data vocabulary.
Carolynn Bernier: Mhm. Cool.
GS1 PACT Model As Linked Data
Phil_Archer: And I did a little bit of work that was organized by GS1 Australia and New Zealand where I wor with someone else and we took the packed model and we created a link data yeah.
Carolynn Bernier: That's amazing.
Phil_Archer: As you said,…
Carolynn Bernier: But did you you created the vocabularies, right? You didn't create an ontology.
Phil_Archer: we took the data model that they have already created and…
Carolynn Bernier: Or did you? Yes. But the GS1 web vocabulary,…
Phil_Archer: I represented it as an extension of the GSON web vocabulary.
Carolynn Bernier: do you have classes and object properties and…
Phil_Archer: Yes. Yes. Yes.
Carolynn Bernier: things like that? So, it is a kind of an RDFS type of ontology.
Phil_Archer: Yes, I don't think we use AL.
Carolynn Bernier: It's not an owl ontology. Yeah. Mhm.
Phil_Archer: It's been around for quite some time. it is an extension of schema.org. and so it follows their modeling style.
Carolynn Bernier: Who schema?
Phil_Archer: Yes. Yeah.
Carolynn Bernier: Okay. Yeah.
Phil_Archer: So it's been around for a long long time 12 13 years or so. We manage it under our standards management process. so we have a link type of DPP which is also an unregistered link type. Now but yes no it has classes and properties and…
Carolynn Bernier: Mhm.
Phil_Archer: where it's relevant we say this is the same as that schema.org property or it's the same as the class or whatever.
Phil_Archer: So GS1 product is the same as schema product.
Carolynn Bernier: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty cool.
Phil_Archer: So it's all done. So that's probably the most useful particular thing to send you to. Yeah, it's been around. So yes, so yes,…
Phil_Archer: that patchwork that was purely in my GS1 had nothing to do with W3C. we took the packed data model and then created the extra classes and properties that completely 100% match what PAC have done. We haven't changed the packed model at all. We simply represent the pack model as a link data vocabulary based on what's in there.
Carolynn Bernier: Yes. Yes.
Carolynn Bernier: Yes. Yes.
Phil_Archer: So one of the a modeling decision I took that is obviously open to challenge by anybody but it seemed sensible to me.
Phil_Archer: We have a class of certification info. and I think I modeled product carbon footprint as a subclass of that. so you get a lot of properties with that so wherever possible obviously we just used existing ones and extended it as required. So it's because I did that pact or the World Business Council for Sustainable Development,…
LCA Ontology And PACT Modeling
Phil_Archer: WCB, whatever they call invit. I'm not an expert on carbon on greenhouse gases or…
Carolynn Bernier: That's cool.
Phil_Archer: carbon footprints or anything. I don't pretend to be, but if they've got a model, I might be able to help them turn it into a link data vocabulary. So that's the only reason I'm there. Carolynn Bernier:
Carolynn Bernier: That is very very cool. And I actually with your colleague from JS1 France Elio we wrote a paper on the role of standardization organizations in semantic interoperability for DPP and…
Phil_Archer: Yeah. No.
Carolynn Bernier: where I say that the role of standards is to help organizations develop semant models for their data right because they don't have to be all ontologists or data modelers and things like that so That's exactly your role,…
Carolynn Bernier: So, if you don't mind, I'm going to share this with Marandre and Fatima. I put you in copy and…
Phil_Archer: jump. Yeah.
Carolynn Bernier: I'll just ask them if our LCA ontology it would be interesting to explore how our LContology could cover in a conceptual point like using the word cover conceptually, right? all the classes and…
Phil_Archer: Yeah. Right.
Carolynn Bernier: object properties and data properties and things like that that you have created to model packed and this would be very interesting.
Phil_Archer: One other guy did some work on it and…
Carolynn Bernier: Yeah. Yeah.
Phil_Archer: then he was meant to do all of it and didn't and did it until the deadline was next week.
Phil_Archer: So I" Said to my wife, "I'm working Sunday." And I spent the Sunday morning.
Phil_Archer: And in fact, once I got going, didn't actually take that long. So what I drafted, I'll be honest, took me half a day when I didn't really want to be working at all. And so I know it can be improved.
Carolynn Bernier: Yeah. Mhm.
Carolynn Bernier: Mhm. Yeah.
Phil_Archer: Of course it.
Carolynn Bernier: And the vocabulary themselves are…
Phil_Archer: But here's a proof of concept. Here's how we could do this. But it would need, proper review by people who know what they're talking about.
Carolynn Bernier: where did you add them as a rep in the ref.js1.org.
Phil_Archer: Not the extension the existing GitHub. Yeah.
Carolynn Bernier: No, no, no. I see it. Okay. Yeah, it's PAC. Okay. It's on webvox packension.
Carolynn Bernier: Cool.
Phil_Archer: And…
Phil_Archer: if did I thought I included the thing to the I seem to have missed I thought I did this.
Phil_Archer: There should be a GitHub link to where this stuff is. I thought I had done that.
Carolynn Bernier: Yes, I am.
Carolynn Bernier: I am on the GitHub.
Phil_Archer: All right. Yes. …
Carolynn Bernier: I'm looking at extension.json.
Phil_Archer: web. Okay. Yes, that's the one.
Carolynn Bernier: All right.
Phil_Archer: That's the one. Okay, I've got my chairs call with Brent and Ivan. Great.
Carolynn Bernier: I'm writing Fatima and Mar Andre to talk about this idea of a note. and also to show them your work unpacked.
Phil_Archer: It's great. Love it.
Carolynn Bernier: Thank you, Phil. Bye.
Phil_Archer: Thank you. All Speak again soon. Thanks, Carl. Cheers. Meeting ended after 00:33:44 👋 This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.