Meeting minutes
W3C Election Discussion
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Hey, Ted.
Ted_Thibodeau_Jr: Morning.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Good morning. Whoa, it's Hey, Joe.
Joe Andrieu: Hey guys.
Joe Andrieu: Denin and I made a mistake. We didn't realize this was scheduled against the consortium members meeting that's going on right now.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: No.
Joe Andrieu: And…
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Yeah. Yeah. s***.
Joe Andrieu: this is about this contention election that's happening. so yeah,…
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Should we direct people there or what? Yeah,…
Joe Andrieu: if you could, that's why I got on was to let you guys know. I apologize for the disruption. it's the consortium members meeting.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: no problem. and…
Phillip Long: Can you came in late?
Dmitri_Zagidulin: remind me two words.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: What's the contentious election thing? Consortium members meeting.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Okay, got it. and can you do me a favor and paste the link to it here in chat so that I can refer people to it?
Joe Andrieu: Yeah. Yes. Okay. No,…
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Thanks, Appreciate it. No, no, no. You didn't come in late. so this is about to start the delegated authorization meeting but Joe points out that there's another sort of all hands diff meeting about something about a consolidated election.
Phillip Long: A deflection.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Diff election.
Joe Andrieu: no, this is W3C consortium member meeting not difficult.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Got it.
Phillip Long: …
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Got it.
Phillip Long: this is the deflection.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Got it.
Phillip Long: Yeah, this is a somewhat contentious election.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: to W3C. Right, right, right, right, right, but this is specifically for W3C members. got All So, I'll give heads up to people…
Dmitri_Zagidulin: who are W3C members. And then, thanks, Joe.
Phillip Long: And that meeting is taking place concurrently.
Joe Andrieu: Thank you.
Joe Andrieu: Yeah. Yeah,…
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Yeah, concurrently,…
<Joe Andrieu> W3C Authentication Platform | W3C
Joe Andrieu: it's just starting and…
Dmitri_Zagidulin: right? opposite of and…
Joe Andrieu: thanking it. I didn't realize that or we would have let people know.
Phillip Long: I got to let the folks at ASU know because they're the voting rep, not me.
Joe Andrieu: Yeah, the voting ends in 1 hour and this is a formal meeting in which there's going to be the last discussion that might influence it, but I think most people will have cast their votes, Phillip Long:
Phillip Long: I don't know if they have or not. I gave him my recommendation, but I don't know if they've done it,…
Joe Andrieu: It'd be good reminder if I just got mine in.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: what's the topic like what's the election on toilets I haven't followed
Phillip Long: the new CEO,…
Joe Andrieu: This is technically the board and…
Dmitri_Zagidulin: The new CEO straight up. Phillip Long:
Phillip Long: is the board,…
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Got it.
Joe Andrieu: and…
Phillip Long: Who will then be involved in the Greetings.
Joe Andrieu: one of the things that's been contentious in the board election on the AC forum and members only communication but to share with you the impact has been transitions in the CEO and why didn't the board hold them accountable last time and how will we know that our new candidates are going to be able to hold the new CEO accountable. So, it's certainly the most exciting election…
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Got it. that's
Joe Andrieu: since I've been involved in the W3C. Not that I want excitement here. …
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Damn, that is exciting.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Right, right,…
Joe Andrieu: let me bounce over that other meeting.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Thank you so much.
Joe Andrieu: I appreciate Dimmitri you willing to pass on the torch. Thank you. Cheers.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Thank you so much. Thanks. Hi, Joe. Whoa, drama. I like it. Phil. Hi, Lane.
Elaine_Wooton: Good wanted.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Good morning…
Phillip Long: So he put that link in chat. Is that…
Dmitri_Zagidulin: case you see it.
Phillip Long: I see it. Yeah.
<Dmitri_Zagidulin> W3C Authentication Platform | W3C
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Okay, great. right now. Phillip Long:
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Yeah. Yeah. Hey, Manu.
Manu_Sporny: Hey, Dimmitri. How you doing? Phil. Hey, Lane.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Joe just joined and…
Phillip Long: Greetings.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: said that the exciting W3C election is also happening right meeting is happening right now.
Manu_Sporny: No thanks.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Yeah. Yeah. at over here if you want to go over there instead.
Manu_Sporny: I'd like my morning drama free.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Yeah. Excellent. Right on. wow.
Phillip Long: As long as you got your votes in.
Manu_Sporny: I did. Yeah, it's gonna be a doozy.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Who can I ask? So I haven't followed the excitement at all. Who's the new CEO? I see.
Phillip Long: Hasn't been hired.
Manu_Sporny: Dom is interim CEO,…
<Dmitri_Zagidulin> Delegated Authority Evaluations
Phillip Long: Interum, right?
Manu_Sporny: which Dom's great. but you're right, Philly. the new CEO is I think they're still searching and it took a long time to find the last CEO so I expect to take an equivalent amount of time to find the new CEO.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: I see. Right.
Manu_Sporny: That's right.
Phillip Long: And if this board election is happening now, then the new board will be involved in that selection.
Manu_Sporny: Yeah. Yeah.
Phillip Long: That's what the criticality is at the moment. She's Manu Sporny:
Manu_Sporny: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And all this is member confidential stuff that we should not be talking about on a recorded call. Just as a heads up.
Delegated Authority Specifications Evaluation
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Yep. I mean, I just keep forgetting this is Very exciting. I'm glad you're joining us. so we're fairly low attendance today. I think in conjunction with the W3C meeting we've been away for a couple of weeks so let's catch you up if you haven't had a chance to look at this is the overall paper that we've been working on here in chat and…
Dmitri_Zagidulin: so what it is it is evaluating various delegated authority spec
Dmitri_Zagidulin: specifications through the lens of specifically how useful is this for LLM agents or any kind of agentic authorization and it takes up a rubric. Yeah, Go ahead.
Phillip Long: Yeah, …
Ucan And Zcaps Implementation Challenges
Phillip Long: I was just going to say for context, I've been working with ASU on this very topic for the last a month and a half or so. because they have huge pressure to make these agents available to students as well as faculty and u and we have looked at the various options all the way down including macaroon and god knows what else. and one of the problems appears is at the moment that the only capabilities framework that is actually implemented in any in and other than I believe Manu in your organization implemented in any degree is the UKAN implementations.
Phillip Long: and…
Phillip Long: UKAN unfortunately is not something that Chaos OS supports at the moment. So they're hesitant to go down the other path.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Wait, I missed…
Phillip Long: Go ahead.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: what you said about the sentence before Ukans. So, they've evaluated a bunch and
Phillip Long: And there's only really two options that have that make any sense. Ukan is one and I'm blanking on the initials. the one that you're using in the Zcaps LD is natively supported or…
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Z capsuh.
Phillip Long: least has some support in KAS OS which has now been integrated into as MCP identity.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Mhm.
Phillip Long: But the problem that the institution at ASU has is as far as we know there's only one place and that's that digital bazaar that has implemented it and so they're looking for an alternative that has at least some other implementations and…
Phillip Long: a third party that's maintaining it from the community and that happens to be UKAN.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Got it.
Phillip Long: But the problem with Ukan is that you can't pass the capabilities restrictions in the credential itself and it won't go through using the fields as a means of passing that information that's not supported. so,…
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Yeah, you
Phillip Long: so effectively I've got a pull request that's been put together to the diff folks that would enable it to implement Ukan if they followed it. So, we're waiting to submit that to Chaos,…
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Got it. Go ahead, man.
Manu_Sporny: submitted to the chaos folks.
Phillip Long: Because they're the ones that have to great.
Manu_Sporny: Because I'm talking directly with Rosalyn and Dylan about chaos and Cs and Zcaps and things of that nature. our initial feedback to Dillian was basically hey got some concerns about you using a verifiable credential as a capability it might be better off that you use a capability to do some of the stuff that you're doing and they were like okay we have deployed what we have and it's out there and…
Phillip Long: Right. …
Manu_Sporny: they were very willing to modify change I think route using ZCAPS instead.
Phillip Long: that's And would they be open doing something to enable Ukan to be in there?
Manu_Sporny: So yeah,…
Dmitri_Zagidulin: minus out.
Manu_Sporny: that and I think Dylan's going to be at TAC, so there'll be time to sit down and chat with him a bit about it.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Fantastic.
Manu_Sporny: Don't know. Have to talk with them.
Phillip Long: Okay.
Capability System Choices
Manu_Sporny: I mean, the problem is picking two capability systems,…
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Yeah, I mean Ukanss are a lot less sort of stable and…
Manu_Sporny: right? And
Phillip Long: …
Dmitri_Zagidulin: and developed than for example even Zcaps even though they themselves need a lot of work.
Phillip Long: the thing that runs into is that ZCAPS is still…
Phillip Long: what 0.4 or something like that.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Yeah,…
Phillip Long: And…
Dmitri_Zagidulin: but right.
Phillip Long: and Ukan has been implemented commercially for a while by three or four different companies. And that's the problem I'm running into.
Manu_Sporny: Is it…
Phillip Long: That's the problem I'm running into.
Manu_Sporny: where's…
Phillip Long: I can send you the list.
Manu_Sporny: where Yeah,…
Phillip Long: I understand that.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: I mean,… Manu Sporny:
Manu_Sporny: it'd be interesting Good.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: the problem with Ukans though is that it's not even in a standards body. It's Phillip Long:
Phillip Long: I understand that.
Phillip Long: But they're looking it's got implementations out there and it's got an organization that is running an open-source community around it. It's not a Hang on.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: But it's got a couple of implementations.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Which is what?
Manu_Sporny: Which organization is that?
Phillip Long: I'll have to go pull it up. I don't have it in front of me. Why don't we continue the conversation? I'll stick it in chat.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Got it. Thanks. Yeah, that's really interesting. in Manos. So, a couple of members of this group of course the KSOS folks there's another team headed by Agy Count I keep forgetting what their name is, but Juan would know. but it's a different implementation.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Basically several people as over the years but especially now are trying to implement ZCAPS on top of VCs right and…
Manu_Sporny: Mhm.
Manu_Sporny: Yeah. Yeah.
Implementing Zcaps On Top Of Vcs
Dmitri_Zagidulin: so what we wanted to do is to add a chapter to this paper on here's why you probably shouldn't implement Zcaps on top of VCs but if you're going to here's how to do it best practices so that's one of the things we're working on.
Manu_Sporny: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I Yeah.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: I would love your feedback on that.
Manu_Sporny: I mean, don't do it, But I mean, we can't stop people from doing stuff like that. And I mean people are reaching for this hammer and…
Dmitri_Zagidulin: And I think Yeah.
Manu_Sporny: and I agree Demetri if people are going to do it we need to warn them hey by the way there be dragons here and here are all the ways of shooting your foot off
Dmitri_Zagidulin: And we can Yeah.
Manu_Sporny: if you use a VC as a Zcap.
Manu_Sporny: Mhm.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: But also we can slowly guide it towards convergence.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: we can say that okay if you're going to do VCs then here's how you do the target field here's how you do the actions field right here's the thing basically we can b just have VC Zcaps with a different hat but let me step back for a second and I don't know whether you've had a chance to read this paper or how much you're familiar with our work. just a couple of words of introduction.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: So what we've tried to do with Alan Karp's help is to sort of take the classic capability authorization rubrics or…
Dmitri_Zagidulin: or…
Dmitri_Zagidulin: criteria and evaluate several specs against them including ZCAPS UKAP UKANs ooth 2 and 2.1 off Zen and a couple of other things right and…
Manu_Sporny: Thank you.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: so the o overall criteria are. no. What? hold on. Juan, I think there might be a split between there might my god. Okay.
Phillip Long: What's that?
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Wow.
Manu_Sporny: I mean,…
Manu_Sporny: I thought I was going to the VC confidence call. That's where I thought I was.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Before you go to the museum, before you hop over …
Manu_Sporny: No, this is the VC confidence method call.
Phillip Long: This is the She cast.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: I don't know why. I'm so sorry for the Okay, so I think what instead happened is I clicked on the wrong link. I clicked on the VC hot confidence thinking that it's the delegated authorization, which now it makes more sense that Joe hopped in here and…
Dmitri_Zagidulin: says, "Hey, send everybody to the elections thing." Okay. so I'm going to go over to the proper
Phillip Long: What is Hold on.
Manu_Sporny: I think you have an outdated entry.
Phillip Long: There is no U authorization. That's not on this meeting time.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: It is.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: It is the No,…
Phillip Long: I think Yeah, I do. I agree.
Manu_Sporny: .
Dmitri_Zagidulin: sorry. Sorry. There's a diff delegate authorization weekly meeting to work on this paper.
Manu_Sporny: Okay.
Phillip Long: This
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Yeah. Yeah.
Manu_Sporny: Okay.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. my deep apologies.
Manu_Sporny: And then I guess Joe canceled the meeting today…
Manu_Sporny: because of the WTC election.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Yes, that's…
Dmitri_Zagidulin: That's what it is. I'm so Okay.
Manu_Sporny: right. Look at that.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Apologies for the confusion. Mon, you really should Yeah,…
Manu_Sporny: Hey, it was good to learn about this paper. Thank you, Demetri. I was like,…
Dmitri_Zagidulin: absolutely. my god.
Manu_Sporny: I guess this is what we're talking about today.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: I'm apologies for the confusion.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: I'm going over there.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Manu, I think this is interesting to you because a bunch of people are trying to reimplement Zcaps as always.
Manu_Sporny: Okay. Yeah.
<Dmitri_Zagidulin> Launch Meeting - Zoom
Manu_Sporny: I Yeah.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Okay, We'll chat separately.
Manu_Sporny: I love that people are excited about this space, but I can't be in every single place that people are reinventing the wheel.
Phillip Long: Right. Yeah.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Yep. Yep. Cheers. …
Phillip Long: In chat I put Storch is the place that's got it for you can implement it in production and has been maintaining it.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: good god.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A Beno was part of that team. It's a tiny team. I can't believe Arizona is even looking at this. But all right, we'll talk about it. I got to run over and run the actual meeting.
Phillip Long: This is formerly protocol labs when Okay,…
Manu_Sporny: Good luck, Demetri. Bye.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Thanks all. Cheers.
Phillip Long: goodbye everyone.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Please feel free to hop over there. By the Zoom link in chat. all right.
<Phillip Long> UCAN is implemented in production at Storacha (formerly web3.storage, from Protocol Labs)
Manu_Sporny: Yeah. Yeah.
Dmitri_Zagidulin: Cheers. Bye.
Confidence Method Call Status
Manu_Sporny: Thanks. All anything we should talk about confidence method wise before we drop? I mean, clearly we don't have quorum for the meeting today, but okay.
Phillip Long: probably not.
Phillip Long: I've got people working on a hole in the roof right now.
Manu_Sporny: Jeez. …
Phillip Long: It's been a hole that's been there for…
Manu_Sporny: good luck.
Phillip Long: since August. it's leaked all the way down through two floors at this point.
Manu_Sporny: No. No. it's always not good when you find out many weeks after it.
Phillip Long: And it's also right next to my solar array implementation. So, I had to remove one of the panels and… Manu Sporny:
Manu_Sporny: Jeez.
Phillip Long: I may have to remove the whole damn frame.
Manu_Sporny: No.
Phillip Long: And my company went out of business. So, they're not there anymore for the solar.
Manu_Sporny: No. no.
Phillip Long: And everybody else that comes to it wants to charge you an $800 safety check before they will touch it.
Manu_Sporny: Jeez. no. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds about right.
Phillip Long: They got you by the shorthairs. all right.
Manu_Sporny: Yeah. All you all have a wonderful rest of your day and…
Elaine_Wooton: That was fun. Bye.
Manu_Sporny: we'll chat again,…
Phillip Long: We'll talk to you again.
Manu_Sporny: I'm sure, on a future call.
Phillip Long: Okay. Bye. Manu Sporny:
Manu_Sporny: Take care. Bye. Meeting ended after 00:20:08 👋 This editable transcript was computer generated and might contain errors. People can also change the text after it was created.