Archive index

A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 13th of May 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 13 05:37
    Morning you slackers
  2. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 05:47
    [jitendra] morning
  3. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 13 05:48
    o/
  4. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 13 05:48
    Tis a good day.
  5. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 13 05:48
    Considering I slept for 3 hours…
  6. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 13 05:49
    Pfff dude
  7. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 13 05:50
    It'll be fine!
  8. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 13 05:50
    (famous last words)
  9. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    May 13 05:50
    What's the worst that can happen?
  10. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 13 05:50
    Stoked for the workshop though!
  11. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 13 05:50
    Uhm, me dying while giving a workshop…
  12. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    May 13 05:51
    Or you don't die, but get very close and just suffer a lot.
  13. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    May 13 05:51
    That would be so embarassing.
  14. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 13 05:51
    How so? That is my life.
  15. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    May 13 05:51
    Well more so than normal then.
  16. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 13 05:53
    As long as I don't have to pretend to be you to get a free drink; I'll probably do fine today.
  17. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 13 05:53
    That was beautiful though :D
  18. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    May 13 05:54
    Hah, it was
  19. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 13 05:54
    “Oh, you don't need to sign up, just take some”—woman at registry desk
  20. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    May 13 05:54
    ^_^
  21. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 13 05:54
    Free drinks?!
  22. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 13 05:54
    CSUN.
  23. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 13 05:54
    Deque karaoke.
  24. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 13 05:54
    Aha
  25. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    May 13 05:54
    He may or may not have pretended to be me to get free drinks
  26. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    May 13 05:55
    I still owe you one, btw. Don't forget
  27. jkva @jkva forgets
  28. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    May 13 05:56
    I'll remember that you forget
  29. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 13 05:56
    Oh I won't forget garcialo.
  30. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    May 13 05:56
    Wonderful
  31. fstorr
    @fstorr
    May 13 06:24
    @jkva late to the party on this, but a good book on color theory is Interaction of Color by Josef Albers. There's dead tree versions and also an interactive one for the iPad, which is interesting. The iPad one is listed as free but that gets you part of the book; paying the in-app purchase gets you the rest.
  32. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 13 06:25
    I'll see if it is on safari, thanks @fstorr 👍
  33. Fiona Holder
    @FionaHolder
    May 13 10:31
    Morning everyone, I'm developing (yet another, I know) accessibility testing tool, and I was wondering if there are any decent studies / data sources out there looking at developer attitudes to accessibility, what the struggles are etc? Anyone know of anything useful please?
  34. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    May 13 10:47
    Morning slackers.
  35. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 13 11:13
    jnurthen, you heren?
  36. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 13 11:13
    here*
  37. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    May 13 11:25
    @FionaHolder not that I'm aware of, but I'm far from the authority. Although I'd guess that no one really wants to uncover all the dev criticisms of accessibility, as it would be bad for the discippline.
  38. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    May 13 11:26
    *discipline.
  39. Fiona Holder
    @FionaHolder
    May 13 11:32
    @amandarush Ah, I hadn't considered that perspective. I suppose from my point of view, if I want to help devs with accessibility, I want to know the difficulties, but I suppose it is sort of "negative press"
  40. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    May 13 11:44
    @FionaHolder I think it's necessary negative press. If devs are going to adopt accessibility, then they should be listened to. And I'd be willing to provide you info for your project. I think I'm OK at accessibility, although far from an expert, and I'm a dev who has problems with it and the general approach.
  41. Fiona Holder
    @FionaHolder
    May 13 11:47
    @amandarush Thanks, that's really helpful. I'm planning on putting a survey together myself over the next couple of days so I'll let this channel know when it's up. Though I'd imagine everyone here has more knowledge than the "average developer"
  42. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 13 11:49
    @FionaHolder I think with developers the main thing they have to deal with is their manager/boss
  43. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 13 11:50
    they might want to do accessibility, but they may not be allowed to do so because of budget or that it takes more time
  44. Fiona Holder
    @FionaHolder
    May 13 11:51
    @sophieschoice As a manager of developers myself, I agree! But part of that is also the developers saying to their boss "accessibility on this thing will be really hard and will add weeks to the timescales" and if we were to make that take less time, more bosses would come on board
  45. Fiona Holder
    @FionaHolder
    May 13 11:55
    What I'm going to try to tackle with this tool are the areas that can't be automated, I supposed you'd call them semi-automated checks
  46. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 13 11:55
    @FionaHolder i think bosses and clients should also understand they shouldnt be so hung up on certain features/techniques/latest craze in webdesign. That would give developers more room as well.
  47. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 13 11:57
    @FionaHolder because they want those things, it takes more time.
  48. Fiona Holder
    @FionaHolder
    May 13 11:57
    @sophieschoice Yes, it's all about considering a11y from the start, not as a bolt-on
  49. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 13 12:00
    @FionaHolder Exactly. Don´t try to get accessibility take less time. It won´t be done or tested correctly. Good websites take time to develop. If bosses and clients are not OK with that, its their loss.
  50. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 13 12:01
    @FionaHolder with trying to make accessibility take less time, you cater to the needs of your boss/client. While you should cater to the needs of the visitors of the website you are making.
  51. Fiona Holder
    @FionaHolder
    May 13 12:03
    @sophieschoice I suppose I want to make it easier for developers, which will therefore take less time. It still does need buy-in from the start
  52. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 12:04
    My biggest thing for getting devs to write accessibly is doing as much as I possibly can to make it less work. Everything that is both mysterious and more work is most likely to be last-done or on the chopping block
  53. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 13 12:04
    it only gets easier for them with testing and experimenting. And really understanding why something breaks/is not supported/does not validate.
  54. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 12:04
    the easier it is, the more it seems like just another part of "writing quality code" (like writing tests, writing documentation, security, no spaghetti...), the more devs will do it
  55. Fiona Holder
    @FionaHolder
    May 13 12:05
    @StommePoes That's exactly what I'm getting at. It's all a bit shrouded in mystery and seen as a hard thing to do right now, and that's what I'd like to change
  56. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 12:06
    Well, the easy stuff is easy, the hard stuff is hard for a number of reasons
  57. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 12:06
    I heard a really great rant by a guy trying to make React tab panels
  58. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 12:07
    [karlgroves] What’s hard about React tab panels?
  59. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 13 12:07
    exactly, the easy stuff shouldn´t be a problem for a developer. The hard stuff is just something they need to experiment with to really understand what is correct and what is wrong.
  60. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 12:07
    http://davidtheclark.com/building-react-aria-menubutton/
  61. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 12:08
    this guy has it dead-on
  62. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 12:08
    @karlgroves in this case, little except the way I'm trying to do it with progressive enhancement, which requires a method called "dangerouslysetInnerHTML"
  63. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 12:09
    The point is the widget-making part is hard. You can even do everything right but then it actually doesn't work in 3 out of 4 SRs, or it works in SRs but dies in Dragon/WSR
  64. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 12:09
    or whatever
  65. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 12:09
    That's just part of the usual issues the apg and ariapf work on anyway
  66. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 12:10

    quote: "Accessibility is Hard

    Don’t let anybody tell you otherwise.
    Yes, yes, yes, I know, of course, you’re right, absolutely — there are indeed some very simple, elementary best-practices that do affect accessibility (e.g. use alt text! semantic tags! colors with sufficient contrast!). And if that’s all you’re worried about, then yes, accessibility is easy. But pass beyond those basics, try to build something sufficiently complex with JS interactivity, and (unless your experience is dramatically different from mine) your research will lead you into a baffling hodgepodge of incomplete, contradictory, insufficiently exemplified, inadequately verified, usually outdated material."

  67. Fiona Holder
    @FionaHolder
    May 13 12:10
    @StommePoes That's an interesting read!
  68. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 12:11
    [karlgroves] At some point we have to place the requirement for accessibility on AT vendors, too. For instance if something is standards-compliant and doesn’t work on Dragon, then Nuance needs to get their shit together
  69. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 12:11
    And another thing that makes stuff easy is, some of the things devs build all the time do have some pretty stable setups-- I've seen a bazillion modal dialogs that, while some may differ slightly here and there, generally work everywhere, with the main issue actually being how to hide the rest of the page if the modal isn't a sibling of the page so you can't safely use aria-hidden
  70. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 12:12
    It's not only SR users that could arrow right out of your modal otherwise without realising it, but Dragon can try to activate things on teh "hidden with semi-opaque cuteness" page as well
  71. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 12:12
    If Nuance doesn't consider itself an AT vendor and doesn't care that people with disabilities tend to use their shit, i don't see how anyone can pressure them
  72. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 13 12:13
    @FionaHolder I guess I am trying to say that you shouldn´t worry about it making it easer. Worry about them grasping the basics in accessibility with HTML and CSS. If they grasp the basics and understand it, they understand complicated issues with javascipt and such better.
  73. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 12:13
    They see their main customers as radiologists, paralegals, and writers.
  74. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 12:13
    @sophieschoice to me, that's one of the ways OF making it easier. When the basics are understood, you can kinda whip out a lot of things as a developer and it becomes like writing your other code
  75. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 12:14

    [karlgroves] > i don't see how anyone can pressure them

    I don’t see anyone pressuring them, though. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve seen people complain, but I’m betting if there were more and louder voices, they’d listen.

  76. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 12:14
    Oh, possibly.
  77. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 12:14
    Someone got them to add in some ARIA support in 13 for example
  78. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 12:14
    not sure who
  79. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 12:14
    They just weren't going to bother for a long time.
  80. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 13 12:15
    @StommePoes Agreed! It just took me a while to say it in English ;)
  81. Fiona Holder
    @FionaHolder
    May 13 12:15
    @sophieschoice I saw someone the other day describe it like developers felt when we first started building responsive sites, that seemed confusing and hard and now it's just something we do. And it does take longer, but our bosses see the benefit and the devs say it's easy so everyone wins
  82. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 12:15
    I think it would have to be their own users. I mean, some JAWS bugs, I'm betting it's mostly blink customers bitching at them (maybe also developers), whereas I dunno how many Nuance customers notice ARIA
  83. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 12:15
    or other accessibility things
  84. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 12:16
    @fionaHolder that's a good analogy
  85. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 13 12:26
    @FionaHolder yeah, first they needed to grasp the basics and afterwards they dove in polyfills, device detection and the like.
  86. Fiona Holder
    @FionaHolder
    May 13 12:32
    @sophieschoice Yeah, part of my role is coming up with fixed price costs for sites and over the past few years I've gone from "responsive?! that'll add 20%" to "oh sure, i'll add 5% to costs for that, it's not a problem". I'd like to see the same for a11y!
  87. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 13 13:18
    ooh, new UI for gitter
  88. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 13 13:20
    And I am still a strong believer that a responsive site is not the best solution for all clients. Having separate sites can actually be better
  89. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 13:21
    [dylanb] Y’all might find this interesting if you or your organizations are using React https://www.npmjs.com/package/react-axe
  90. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 13:23
    [afercia] @MichielBijl @jnurthen @dstorey @cordelia thanks for your feedback about combobox :slightly_smiling_face: Recently I've been doing lot of research about autocomplete widgets using combobox, listbox, and option roles. They work pretty well but I'm stuck at making nested lists work properly.
  91. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    May 13 13:32
    I think the reason devs find responsive easy is because there was a lot of education from the start that was thorough and completely open. That doesn't exist with accessibility. Until it does, devs are going to find accessibility difficult and time-consuming because we're not building basic things, we're building complex things because client wants all the features.
  92. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 13 14:03
    I think with responsive it came from the shiney/sexy of mobile dev that Apple was pushing, and outspoken devs that wanted 1 web to rule them all, despite that not necessarily being the best thing for all clients. But it is something that any one can deliver without spending $$$ for a great solution
  93. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 13 14:03
    you can hire your teenage niece to put together a responsive website. It requires more skills to put together a professional site.
  94. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    May 13 14:10
    @powrsurg but would it be built with love?
  95. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:16
    [scottohara] or powered by coffee?
  96. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 13 14:18
    @garcialo what is love?
  97. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    May 13 14:19
    @powrsurg baby don't hurt me?
  98. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 13 14:20
    don't hurt me, no more.
  99. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    May 13 14:23
    OK, accessible project management software. Anybody got any recs or am I correct that everything is inaccessible?
  100. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 14:24
    Everything I've run into is pretty pile-of-poo
  101. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    May 13 14:24
    And agree re: you can hire your neice, or get a pro to build your site. Problem with accessibility though is if you're not a pro, you're going to get it wrong, and that requires a good educational foundation. Which doesn't exist.
  102. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 14:24
    We use Jira and Sitepoint uses Trello
  103. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    May 13 14:25
    Yeah I have trello, but pile. I'm really trying to not have to keep maintaining internal project management software.
  104. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 14:27
    huge pile
  105. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 14:27
    steaming
  106. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 13 14:32
    I can't find it anymore, but there was once a link that I remember @stevefaulkner posting about universities teaching accessibility. I only remembered it because one of the local universities here was on it
  107. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 13 14:32
    it disappointed me that none of the co-ops we had apply here had taken any of that :(
  108. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:39
    [jdan] We hire contractors to add transcripts to our videos on Khan Academy, does such a thing exist for image alt-text?
  109. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:42
    [capty99] jdan I wonder if you could use mechanical turk.
  110. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 14:44
    Our company works with external vendors who have people in there who do nothing BUT write alt text
  111. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 14:44
    However this is alt text for very specific content, like math and chemistry
  112. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:45
    [cameron] @jdan I used cloudsight API to describe images on Twitter
  113. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:45
    [cameron] it’s basically a wrapper for mechanical Turk
  114. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:45
    [cameron] it’s really good
  115. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:47
    [jdan] @cameron very cool :slightly_smiling_face: and @capty99 thanks for the suggestion
  116. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:48
    [jdan] I worry about missed context though
  117. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:49
    [cameron] what’s an example?
  118. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:49
    [jdan] kinda broad, but these images will be in articles and even exercises on khan academy
  119. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:50
    [jdan] for instance, scatter plots! tough to write alt-text for to give enough info to solve a math problem (the collegeboard does it for their SAT though so it's possible)
  120. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:50
    [jdan] our concern is that we'll need to a hire someone specifically to caption these images - it's a high cost
  121. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:50
    [jdan] interestingly, we crowdsource translations on khan academy and I'm wondering if we could tap into that for image alt text...
  122. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:51
    [cameron] yea, charts and graphs aren’t handled well by cloudsight, but I think with clear instructions you could use mechanical turk as a baseline
  123. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 14:52
    Well, who is creating the charts?
  124. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 14:52
    You have almost as easily a lack of context hiring an outsider as you do using a mechanical turk
  125. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:53
    [cameron] there’s a project called Poet
  126. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:53
    [cameron] https://diagram.herokuapp.com
  127. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:53
    [jdan] @StommesPoes we have contractors to make these charts and graphs when they also write the exercises, but training them to caption these charts and graphs might be very hard/expensive
  128. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 14:53
    ideally whoever's making the charts or the text author(s) who know about the chart ought to be alting the chart
  129. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:53
    [cameron] that guides describer through a workflow to provide context
  130. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 14:54
    Might not be, I can totally see using twitter (or something twitter-like) to train succinctness and some guidelines on how to pick out the important parts of complex visual things like charts
  131. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:54
    [cameron] https://diagram.herokuapp.com/training/how_to_describe
  132. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 14:54
    is that from DIAGRAM group/Benetech?
  133. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:55
    [cameron] yes
  134. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:55
    [jdan] @cameron very cool
  135. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:55
    [cameron] here’s NCAMs guidelines for scatter plots, from that page http://ncam.wgbh.org/experience_learn/educational_media/stemdx/exd
  136. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 14:55
    I've sent their math-specific guidelines to that vendor who writes the alts for math book diagrams
  137. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:56
    [jdan] forwarding this along, so cool
  138. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:56
    [sillero] nice docs
  139. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:56
    [cameron] @stommepoes how did the descriptions turn out for that project?
  140. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 14:57
    Also, what our vendor did for a math book, which had some complicated diagrams taken from Wolfram mathmatica, did two things: the alt just described basically what kind of diagram it was showing, and next to it was a plain link (horribly named "d" but I told them to fix that) with a popup window with a good long description which made it available to all students
  141. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 14:57
    I really like the link-to-description bit, it's like longdesc but for everyone and always works
  142. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 14:57
    These descs were too long for alt text
  143. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 14:57
    But they looked pretty good
  144. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:58
    [jdan] I also need to solve the political problem of convincing folks to train our contractors to caption their charts and graphs :slightly_smiling_face: I'm hoping we'll have some external pressure as we build more things for classrooms this and next year
  145. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:58
    [cameron] yes! Having the description available to everyone is a great idea
  146. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 14:58
    [cameron] not just alt text, but as a linked description
  147. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 15:01
    Yeah they actually added titles and alts, which normally I'm not a fan of, but students wanted to see a tooltip when they moused over. Could have been done by having only an alt and stuffing it into a CSS content :after thing of the div the image is in, but shrug
  148. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 15:02
    like div:hover:after {content: attr(title);...} or something
  149. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 15:03
    I'm glad it's not even an issue with our vendors or in the company, it's so standard I guess in textbooks that the main team lead of this vendor said he's been doing this for years
  150. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 15:03
    might just be section508
  151. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 15:04
    [jdan] @StommePoes innnnnteresting
  152. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 15:05
    [cameron] I bet one could create a workflow based on the DIAGRAM guidelines for mechanical turks to get good descriptions
  153. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 15:18
    [jdan] for internationalization, we have a dashboard that outlines content that is not yet translated and gives very specific calls to action to our translators
  154. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 15:19
    [jdan] I may end up pitching something similar for accessibility that would list articles/exercises with un-captioned images, pages on our site with a11y errors, and maybe even exercises with interactive widgets that can't be used with a keyboard
  155. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 15:20
    [jdan] thought is that Khan Academy employees are all very kind, it's just that the knowledge around how inaccessible our site/content is is pretty lacking
  156. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 16:02

    [artistic_abode] Need thoughts and opinions on this markup:

    A news feed that includes an image, heading, description, and date all inside a single anchor tag.

    I would generally just link the heading and image in a single link so both are clickable. Is it too much to have the description which is often a couple sentences and the date in there as well?

  157. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 16:33
    [scottohara] i would stick with the heading/img as the clickable objects. you don’t normally see the descriptions included in the anchor.
  158. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 17:03
    [jdan] @StommePoes "Our company works with external vendors who have people in there who do nothing BUT write alt text" curious if you could recommend anyone - I forwarded bits of this convo to someone at Khan Academy who might want to reach out to them
  159. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 17:08
    [miwayha] General question: do I need to re-specify lang attributes on iframe elements (embedded videos, for example)?
  160. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 17:08
    [miwayha] assuming that the iframe is the same language as the page
  161. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 17:11
    jdan I've never worked with them before but they're called SPi Global.
  162. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 17:11
    I just tried to see if there was a web site matching the email, get no DNS resolve
  163. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 17:11
    must be these guys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPi_Global
  164. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 17:13
    [scottohara] @miwayha: i would assume no, as the content of the iframe could change and no longer match that language designation. e.g. user navigates to a new page within an iframe. or even in the case of an embedded youtube video, they then load up a video that is in a different language
  165. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 17:13
    [miwayha] awesome. thanks!
  166. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 17:14
    [scottohara] np. again. that’s my assumption. the iframe would be loading a document that should also have it’s own language set.
  167. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 17:14
    [miwayha] your intuition matches mine, so that’s probably a god sign
  168. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 18:24
    Makes sense to me as well. Only special bit I can think of is, iframes need a title attribute, and if the title is in another language that is the language in the iframe, then a lang attr makes sense.
  169. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 13 18:25
    (on an en page)<iframe lang="es" title="un titulo de español" blah blah iframe junk...></iframe>
  170. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 13 18:26
    good point about the title
  171. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 18:43
    [jzeis] Hello all. I am trying to make accessible Likert scale questions on a form. I am trying to use a table but I cannot put a <fieldset> around each row without breaking the structure. What is the best way to go about this?
  172. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 18:44
    [jzeis] Pasted image at 2016-05-13, 2:43 PM
  173. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 13 18:46
    @jzeis looks like a data table with row and column headers to me. I would then add aria-labelledby on the radio buttons pointing to the same row and column headers
  174. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 18:52
    [jzeis] that's what I was thinking, but the client says that each radio button group requires a fieldset and legend
  175. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 13 18:52
    Why?
  176. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 13 18:53
    so long as you expose that grouping information somehow (and you would be doing it in the label) it would meet WCAG
  177. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 13 18:53
    (and also by being in the same table row....)
  178. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 18:53
    [jzeis] haha good question. That's what we have been trying to figure out
  179. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 13 18:53
    if they want FS and legend you would have to dump the tabular layout
  180. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 13 18:55
    [jzeis] ok, that's what I thought. I will give your recommendation a try, thank you for the help
  181. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 13 19:29
    Opinion time...grid of products (thumbnail pages) my inclination is that these be marked up as lists (product container) although this may not fit within the semantic scope of lists
  182. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 13 19:30
    Target does it this way
  183. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 13 19:30
    Lists give an indication of number of items (results) in list and has built in navigation controls
  184. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 13 19:32
    we currently have the items as <div>s, but to get the same level of context as <li>s would require a lot of additional aria-labels and a tabindex="0" on each div, etc.
  185. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 13 19:32
    thoughts?
  186. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 13 19:38
    could you not use role=list and listitem (and if you really needed it aria-posinset and aria-setsize) to simulate the list without changing semantics?
  187. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 13 19:40
    @jnurthen that's not a bad idea; I'll test
  188. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 13 19:52
    @jnurthen - screenreader shortcuts for navigate to next list doesn't work, but it does announce the number of items
  189. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 13 19:52
    hmm - sounds like a screenreader bug
  190. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 13 19:52
    :)