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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 23rd of June 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    Jun 23 08:36
    Morning Slackers.
  2. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 08:37
    [michiel] Good morning!
  3. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 23 08:45
    o/
  4. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    Jun 23 10:39
    What's "o/" mean?
  5. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 23 10:47
    Sorry @amandarush, it's an emoticon. "a person waving"
  6. I'll keep that in mind next time I'm tempted to use that.
  7. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    Jun 23 10:49
    @jkva no worries I'll just add it to the screen reader's pronunciation dictionary. We need more emogis anyway. :P
  8. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 10:49
    [michiel] Don't forget to add \o (person waving back)
  9. [michiel] And \o/ (person putting up arms in celebration)
  10. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 23 10:50
    and o for person bowing
  11. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    Jun 23 10:50
    Will definitely add these. I think emojis are fun.
  12. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 10:50
    [michiel] Alternative for person bowing: /-\o
  13. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    Jun 23 10:51
    Speaking of which, what's the a11y consensus on who handles interpretation for emojis? If they're on a website, should they all have alt attributes for the rendered graphics, or should the screen readers have entries for them?
  14. I mean, alternative text, not attribute.
  15. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 10:52
    [michiel] Apple exposes alternative text, but not sure how.
  16. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 23 10:52
    They're part of a language encoding, just like "CAPITAL A" would be, I'd think
  17. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 10:52
    [michiel] Think that's a feature of VO (maybe)
  18. [michiel] That makes sense.
  19. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 23 10:53
    When captioning videos, is it good practice to leave out the "um, ah" or is that kept in for emotion?
  20. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 10:53
    [michiel] I'd take it out.
  21. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 23 10:53
    YEah, I've taken it out for now
  22. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 10:53
    [michiel] Unless it's part of the conversaiton: “Uhm, let me think about that”
  23. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    Jun 23 10:54
    I know VO for iOS supports them and speaks them, which is nice, but WordPress also supports them, and will render a corresponding graphic on the page because internationalization so wasn't sure.
  24. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 23 10:54
    @Michiel good point
  25. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 10:54
    [michiel] But it doesn't serve any purpose in a talk or something.
  26. [michiel] “So uhm, this thing, uhm, I forgot the name, uhm, argh, it's, uhm, a button element!”
  27. [michiel] Nobody is going to want to read that :P
  28. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    Jun 23 10:54
    Toast Masters FTW!
  29. And then there's the part about if WordPress hard-codes alt text for the emojis we'd have to be able to make them translatable. Nothing immediate but it's been something that's been bouncing around my two braincells for a while.
  30. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Jun 23 12:20
    hey slackers if you are a UK citizen remember to vote #remain
  31. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 23 12:22
    Hey Steve!
  32. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Jun 23 12:35
    hey @jkva great to meet you on weekend, look forward to next time
  33. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 23 12:37
    Likewise =)
  34. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 23 12:47
    http://predictwise.com/politics/uk-politics
  35. Hope it's accurate
  36. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    Jun 23 12:53
    Yes I think you should vote remain and I don't live in the UK. Please don't follow America's freefall into stupidity and reality TV gone horribly horribly wrong. Do what's best for yourselves.
  37. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 12:53
    [michiel] Does anyone know of a custom input field somewhere in the wild? Preferably a password field.
  38. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    Jun 23 12:54
    Hmm. Hang on I think so let me double check.
  39. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 12:55
    [michiel] Twitter, Facebook, Google, Microsoft (live.com), IBM ID, Apple, and even Slack all use type=password.
  40. [michiel] Angular 2 documentation only mentions real inputs as far as I can tell. Maybe marcysutton can help out there.
  41. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    Jun 23 13:13
    Nope not finding anything, but lots of tutorials on how to do it for the web.
  42. So I guess maybe you could look at it like patching an exploit because there are lots of tutorials on how to take advantage of said exploit, but no case of it actually showing up in the wild as far as I can tell.
  43. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    Jun 23 13:19
    Does this have anything to do with the proposed password role?
  44. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 14:06
    [michiel] amandarush: yes. Can go into more detail later today.
  45. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 23 14:27
    I wouldn't call o/ an emoji
  46. emojis are little pictures that on some computers don't even render
  47. o/ is ascii-- it's exactly those two characters, like :), can't have alt text inside or anything.
  48. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 23 14:28
    As I said, it's an emoticon
  49. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 23 14:28
    Ug, but gitter will turn my smilies into freaking emojis
  50. I hate emojis
  51. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 23 14:28
    list_of_stuff_mallory_hates > list_of_stuff_mallory_likes
  52. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 23 14:28
    I hate my random text sometimes being turned into a Simpsons-yellow skinned person face
  53. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 14:32

    [jakecross] I am currently trying to hide an element that is a visual "spotlight" on the page so when navigating with the keyboard, the user is not read out "spot light"... I have tried aria-hidden and role=presentation and neither of them seem to be working.

    Is it down to the screen reader to respect the attributes or am I doing something wrong?

  54. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 23 14:35
    @jakecross: can you share HTML on pastebin or github gist, or something like that?
  55. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 14:37
    [jakecross] If I could, I would. I'm actually having difficulty tracking it down with IE 11 and the screen reader on. It reads the word "spotlight" but a scan across the dom and the code base reveals a single "spotlight" alt tag (though there are three on the page). I'll grab that snippet and paste it here. Uno momento.
  56. [jakecross] https://paste.ee/p/Uzjfd
  57. [michiel] jakecross: if the image is presentational/decoration, it should have an empty alt :)
  58. [michiel] http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/decision-tree/
  59. [jakecross] ...that, is very true!
  60. [michiel] thumbsup emoji
  61. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 23 14:40
    @MichielBijl Sleuth! ++
  62. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 14:41
    [michiel] Maybe I should change my title to Accessibility Detective
  63. [jakecross] That did it!
  64. [jakecross] Whatever your profession, drop it now. Move on to 'alt tag specialist'
  65. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 23 14:43
    The term "alt tag" is known to irritate people, just a heads up ;)
  66. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 14:43
    [michiel] alt attribute :P
  67. [jakecross] :(
  68. [michiel] Anyway, woohoo! Nice job Jake :)
  69. [jakecross] alt thingy ma jiggy
  70. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 23 14:43
    @Michiel: Now go fix Booking's DateTime picker ;)
  71. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 14:43
    [michiel] Sidenote: jkva is also known to irritate people :P
  72. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 23 14:44
    Yeah I'm pretty based
  73. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 14:44
    [jakecross] jkva helped me yesterday so I can't join in I'm afraid
  74. [michiel] tags jkva
  75. [michiel] You're it!
  76. [jakecross] s/tags/attribute/
  77. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 23 14:45
    @Michiel You're in your Element, I see
  78. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 14:45
    [jakecross] I'm putting a /> to this right now
  79. [michiel] =D
  80. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 23 14:47
    I see you're adapting to the quality conversation here quite well, @jakecross
  81. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 14:50
    [michiel] alt=Piece of CSS code is shown with a collapse button underneath. The button reads “Show LESS”. Someone comments that they clicked “Show LESS”, but that they still see CSS code. https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/cAsabVdd/Screen%20Shot%202014-10-08%20at%2012.18.28.png
  82. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 23 14:51
    _<
  83. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 16:07
    [marcysutton] What was your question @michiel?
  84. [michiel] If it's also this blazing hot in Seattle :P
  85. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 16:13
    [michiel] Np, the question is: do you know of any custom password fields. As in, those that do not use type=password.
  86. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 23 16:40
    so for some reason VoiceOver is announcing a video with a caption track and is stuttering for me. Why would VO even announce a caption track? I understand a description track, but why caption?
  87. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 16:45
    [michiel] Maybe the movie isn't in the users native language?
  88. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 17:01
    [marcysutton] @michiel: it is misting and not warm at all here in Bellingham =D
  89. [marcysutton] I haven’t seen that, even the Angular folks use real inputs :p
  90. [joe-watkins] @marcysutton: Just had some amazing sammies from Old World Deli there in Bellingham! Yum!
  91. [michiel] Yeah that's what I saw too, all Angular documentation has real inputs thumbsup emoji:skin-tone-2:
  92. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 17:08
    [marcysutton] Ooooh I'll check it out @joe-watkins! Always looking for an excuse to get out of the house!
  93. [marcysutton] @michiel: Angular Material 1 experimented with custom inputs at one time, but they were impossible to maintain. They also don't trigger the same behavior from the built-in Angular directives so I doubt you'd find any
  94. [michiel] Okay, thank you Marcy, that is good to know.
  95. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 17:14
    [marcysutton] I wish they'd also limited ng-click to interactive elements but technically you can apply a native click event to any element....
  96. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 17:55
    [nathanhammond] @marcysutton: Our approach to that is to add a linter: https://github.com/rwjblue/ember-template-lint#invalid-interactive
  97. [marcysutton] i like it!
  98. [nathanhammond] We also check for event handlers on non-interactive elements: rwjblue/ember-template-lint#76
  99. [nathanhammond] Does Angular actually do a parse of the DOM before attaching interactivity?
  100. [marcysutton] Not that I am aware of
  101. [nathanhammond] Hrm. It'd be difficult for it to do something like this, then.
  102. [marcysutton] They let you attach ng-click to whatever you want
  103. [nathanhammond] We needed a full AST in order to actually tell what is and is not allowed in terms of the markup.
  104. [marcysutton] Which is why we tried to fix it with ngAria, and that turned into more of a problem.
  105. [nathanhammond] what was the fix you tried to apply with ngAria?
  106. [marcysutton] Live and learn =D
  107. [marcysutton] adding keyboard events to ng-click when applied to DIVs...
  108. [marcysutton] then we added a button role which was even worse
  109. [marcysutton] If there’s one feature I wish I could take back, that would be the one
  110. [nathanhammond] Trying to infer intent?
  111. [nathanhammond] (Was that the problem?)
  112. [marcysutton] Yeah. I am working on an app now that uses it, and it adds extra tab stops everywhere.
  113. [marcysutton] The newer version of ngAria is a bit better but it still tries to fix ng-click for you.
  114. [nathanhammond] scribbles notes down
  115. [marcysutton] YES LEARN FROM MY MISTAKES. haha
  116. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 18:00
    [nathanhammond] I mean ... <3
  117. [marcysutton] if I couldn’t laugh about that kind of stuff I’d probably be a sour person.
  118. [marcysutton] That’s why I’m talking about a11y testing a lot more now, it’s impossible to know intent from the framework side
  119. [nathanhammond] I think I agree with that statement except for one scenario in Ember: routing. We know what's going on in that case.
  120. [marcysutton] Ah yes. I meant with click events
  121. [nathanhammond] I think it applies to most everything, actually.
  122. [marcysutton] For example, I recently worked on a directive that bound click to a wrapping DIV containing 2 anchors so the hit area would be larger. ngAria thought it needed to make that wrapping click event accessible. But it didn’t need to! There was already an interactive element inside of it.
  123. [nathanhammond] So helpful. self-(troll emoji)
  124. [nathanhammond] That needs to be something: ng(troll emoji)
  125. [marcysutton] hahaha
  126. [marcysutton] Yeah I trolled myself. It is pretty funny
  127. [nathanhammond] goes to squat ember-(troll emoji)
  128. [marcysutton] Not funny when I think about all the other apps that I can’t go back and correct
  129. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 18:05
    [nathanhammond] Hopefully they're staying up to date with the state of the art.
  130. [marcysutton] So if you’re thinking of using ngAria, turn off the tabindex / bindRoleForClick options in the config
  131. [marcysutton] At least there’s that...
  132. [marcysutton] And use the most up to date version. I did fix some stuff and other people did too
  133. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jun 23 18:46
    anyone any bright ideas as to roles for this - http://www.oracle.com/webfolder/technetwork/jet/uiComponents-filmStrip-masterDetailFilmStrip.html
  134. (it is currently wrong and am looking at fixing it)
  135. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 23 18:51
    ung
  136. so a parent of my video player had aria-live="assertive" (since this is a wizard that changes each time you click a slide) so that is why it was reading off the captions (which the video player creates using its own style)
  137. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 18:53
    [michiel] jnurthen: that's a tabs widget no?
  138. [michiel] Just the tablist is controlled with buttons.
  139. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 23 18:55
    so should I make the player turn aria-live off when a video is playing, and back on when it is paused or ended?
  140. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jun 23 18:59
    @michiel it would be if it wern't architewcted the way it is
  141. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jun 23 19:09
    :)
  142. the issue is that the developer can stamp anything into either area.... I've asked them (for the demo) to switch the things stamped in the bottom to be toggle buttons and to add aria-controls to the top region.
  143. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 19:36
    [michiel] That complicates it indeed.
  144. [michiel] BTW, I think we made good progress re password role.
  145. [michiel] Was a good discussion.
  146. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 23 19:37
    It's a role that fits you.
  147. Sorry if that made you role your eyes
  148. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jun 23 19:51
    :(
  149. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 19:51
    [michiel] Man…
  150. [michiel] It's time to role.
  151. [michiel] Laters
  152. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jun 23 19:52
    i need to get a role for lunch
  153. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 19:59
    [marcysutton] I need to go ride my bike, feeling role-y poly
  154. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 23 20:00
    Hope the weather over there is better...sky is turning green here, I'm not risking it
  155. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 20:10
    [michiel] c-c-c-c-combobreaker
  156. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 23 20:13
    @powrsurg I first learned of aria-lives on captions from Sina
  157. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 20:13
    [michiel] I guess if you turn on captions you want to hear them, no?
  158. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 23 20:14
    I feel that captions are for someone that is deaf, while audio descriptions are for someone that is blind. For the most part
  159. NVDA wasn't reading off the captions/time. Surprised VO did
  160. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 23 20:16
    ask some blinks what they think
  161. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 20:16
    [michiel] I can come up with a couple reasons why you would want captions read. It's not their prime use case I agree. Also, I don't use it and don't know anything about from the real world.
  162. [michiel] What the cat said.
  163. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 23 20:17
    I recall Sina thinking it was pretty cool but I can't remember now if the circumstance was subtitles are plain captions.
  164. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 20:18
    [michiel] I miss Sina rambling about stuff while drunk.
  165. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 23 20:18
    I don't recall him doing that, but at his hotel/airBnB he did fall asleep
  166. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 20:19
    [michiel] You should've come to the Lion Share.
  167. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 23 20:19
    anyway, I bugged him about it
  168. Because I think it was him I was talking to about live regions on captions
  169. specifically on YouTube.
  170. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 23 20:25
    I'm going to be looking forward to a tasty brexit tomorrow.. eggs, maybe bacon, coffee... scotch
  171. (I did hear someone say brexit when they surely meant brekkie)
  172. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 20:28
    [michiel] Sounds tasty
  173. [michiel] is working on dinner
  174. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 23 20:36
    Well, the big issue with it is that VO would stutter which is why I wanted that disabled
  175. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 23 20:55
    What is the fundamental example between a video SRT and a transcript?
  176. s/example/difference/ # tired
  177. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 21:11
    [michiel] jkva: .srt includes timing. Transcript is just text of video.
  178. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 23 21:17
    @Michiel: thanks, from tweeting w/ Mike Lockrey I thought there was more to it than that
  179. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 22:48

    [kylegach] Hi all, I’m new here. I have a question about the nifty “show/hide password” button you sometimes see on a sign in form. Typically, a form is constructed such that you can focus the username field, tab to the password field, then tab to the submit button and hit space/enter. But if the password field has one of those show/hide buttons, how should that be handled in the tab order? I considered just removing it from the tab order entirely, since non-sighted users won’t benefit from that functionality, but that excludes keyboard-only users (and probably others).

    I ask because we’re building a form with one of those buttons, and my teammate just accidentally revealed his password to the conference room when his muscle memory and our tab order led him to focus and activate the show/hide toggle rather than the submit button like he expected.

  180. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jun 23 22:54
    I know it would be weird but how about putting it after the log in button (make it a checkbox with "show password" as the label)
  181. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 22:56
    [kylegach] Agree that that’s a bit clunky, but it may work. The explicit label makes up for the lack of visual connection. Thanks! I welcome any other thoughts.
  182. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jun 23 22:57
    you could also look at a shortcut key - but coming up with something that people know is there would be hard I think.
  183. Note - that MSFT implemented this natively in Win 8 & IE and there is no way to get to their show password button from the keyboard.... I consider this a MSFGT bug though
  184. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jun 23 23:03
    generally I'm only seeing these show password things on mobile.... not many places have them on their desktop versions
  185. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 23 23:09
    [kylegach] Yeah, I noticed that about IE. We hide the native implementation in favor of our own.