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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 12th of September 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 00:15
    [michiel] What is your audience anyway?
  2. [michiel] As in, is this for developers, or testers, or monkeys, or both?
  3. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 00:45
    [caesar] Testers
  4. [caesar] Trying to train up more accessibility testers in my organisation
  5. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 01:01
    [michiel] Ahw, was hoping to come up with something for monkeys.
  6. [caesar] LOL, much of a muchness
  7. [michiel] Anyway, a first step I like to take is do an introduction into the different kind of disabilities.
  8. [michiel] But, if you want to keep it simple, an introduction into the different kind of interaction methods with a computer, phone, tablet, whatever could be a nice start.
  9. [michiel] Mouse, keyboard, touch, switch, braille, speech, you name it.
  10. [michiel] Anyway, time for bed here :)
  11. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 01:06
    [caesar] Thanks and goodnight!
  12. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 03:11
    [caesar] On the earlier topic around infinite scrolls, I just noticed this design on one of my favourite blogs, Ars Technica:
  13. [caesar] http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/09/why-star-treks-prime-directive-could-never-be-enforced/
  14. [caesar] The article is broken into two pages, attended by a "Jump to end" skip link and "Page 1 of 2" text.
  15. [caesar] I haven't tested it in any SR but at least on the surface it looks like an elegant design pattern for multi-page content.
  16. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 03:17
    [reridley] Hi a11y people :) I am seeking advice around using a logo image with alt text contained in a h1. Is this sufficient/appropriate content for h1?
  17. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Sep 12 03:18
    Depends on the content beneath the H1
  18. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 03:19
    [reridley] in what way?
  19. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Sep 12 03:20
    In most cases, I would probably say that the logo wouldn't really make sense as an H1, since the H1 should describe the content it's the heading for...but if you had like a 1-page "info about this company/band/whatever the logo is for" then it might make sense as describing the content
  20. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 03:20
    [caesar] I assume that the logo is the business or company name, in which case that would mean the <h1> is summarising the topic of the page as "<company name>"
  21. [caesar] LOL garcialo. I'm gonna stop replying, hahaha... this is getting rather silly with us both saying the same things at the same time
  22. [caesar] I defer to your greater expertise and articulation skills
  23. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Sep 12 03:21
    always good to have second opinions
  24. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 03:22
    [caesar] I'll chime in if I have a dissenting opinion to offer, LOL
  25. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Sep 12 03:22
    sure thing
  26. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 03:23
    [reridley] So in this case the logo is the product name - in this case a game and the content underneath it is information about the game. I guess it is more of marketing page
  27. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Sep 12 03:24
    that sounds like it would be fine then
  28. it would effectively be the same as having the heading be something like "Everything you need to know about PRODUCT"
  29. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 03:28
    [reridley] So I guess I was wondering about the use of a logo only (with alt text) from a screen reader point of view. But from that point of view if the heading needs more context then including this in the alt text would be sufficient
  30. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Sep 12 03:28
    Oh yeah, the alt text will be used a the heading text
  31. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 03:29
    [reridley] thanks for your thoughts :)
  32. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Sep 12 03:29
    the alt text is effectively the same thing as the image
  33. np
  34. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 11:22
    [michiel] Afternnon slackers
  35. [michiel] nnon
  36. [michiel] *nonn
  37. [michiel] noon!
  38. [jv] Noon
  39. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Sep 12 11:24
    Noon
  40. Fiona Holder
    @FionaHolder
    Sep 12 11:28
    Noon
  41. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 12 13:32
    Noooooooon
  42. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Sep 12 13:36
    no on
  43. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 12 13:39
    @jpDevries While I 100% agree with the advice you were given above, do note every english-speaking screen reader user I know has ultimately, at some point, asked me how to pronounce my online name (stomme poes).
  44. The only way i could correct this is if I could wrap a lang="nl" around my name
  45. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 14:11
    [car] @stommepoes How do you pronounce your name? ;)
  46. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 12 14:15
    rhymes with omma goose
  47. Issue on a bug tracker: <a class="point" onclick="closeDiagnostics()"><span class="glyphicon glyphicon-chevron-left"></span> Back</a> needs to be <a class="point" onclick="closeDiagnostics()" tabindex="0" role="link"><span class="glyphicon glyphicon-chevron-left"></span> Back</a>
  48. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 14:15
    [car] got it. :)
  49. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 12 14:16
    "because keyboard cannot focus on the link"
  50. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Sep 12 14:16
    9_9
  51. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 12 14:16
    This was listed as Closed and green, meaning they "fixed" it. I was sent the bug list because 3 of those bugs might be fixable on my end, but I'm glad I reviewed all of them including the Closed ones.
  52. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 14:20
    [car] That one is bizarre. Did a verification tool "catch" that one? (If so, perhaps the tool needs to be verified).
  53. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 12 14:35
    No, based on the other reports it looks like someone (not a regular SR user) used JAWS or NVDA and tried to work the particular tool these bugs are listed on.
  54. It also means that a screen reader and browser combo are listed on many of these, even though honestly they're purely keyboard bugs
  55. but I think they only try using keyboard when testing in a screen reader
  56. and I notice these kinds of reports suggest people tabbed and entered everywhere. They don't use arrow keys or anything to read around.
  57. So in my recommendations on another bug (where the bug report suggested maybe needing alert roles for error messages), I mentioned VoiceOver's 7-second delay as a warning, since it looks like they're slowly starting to offer developers Macs only (instead of Windows)
  58. For development that makes total sense. Easier to install various tools we use on Macs.
  59. I think the designers and content writers still use quite a lot of Windows though.
  60. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 12 14:51
    Interview with Lucy Greco about DictationBridge! http://code-maven.com/cmos-5-lucy-greco-dictationbridge
  61. audio only I believe
    • transcript
  63. that was a plus sign.
  64. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Sep 12 15:58
    @StommePoes "Heading not read by screen reader: add tabindex='0'"
  65. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 12 16:34
    Stuff like that, yeah.
  66. Or, one we did have... "number 3 read out before heading... changed to div solved this"
  67. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 16:47
    [dean] Conferences are tiring. Greetings all from Communication Matters zzzz
  68. [michiel] Try organising one :P
  69. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 17:32
    [michiel] Anyone here in London at the moment?
  70. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 18:47
    [simong] Just started a new job in London!
  71. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 18:59
    [david_caldwell] I'm always in London :)
  72. [david_caldwell] Where you working Simon ?
  73. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 19:21
    [michiel] Well, of anyone wants to grab a beer, I'll be at Paddington in about 10-15 minutes :)
  74. [michiel] If*
  75. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 20:33
    [marcysutton] I'll be there in two weeks!
  76. [marcysutton] has a talk to finish....
  77. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 20:44
    [michiel] marcysutton: I'd enjoy drinking another beer with you, but I'm not waiting two weeks at the station ;)
  78. [michiel] Oh, and I'll be in Lisbon by then.
  79. [marcysutton] haha. oh cool! you can say hi to Wilco!
  80. [michiel] Will he be at TPAC?
  81. [marcysutton] yep!
  82. [michiel] Nice :) He is also coming to role=drinks in October :)
  83. [marcysutton] That is awesome!
  84. [michiel] Yeah, we got a nice turnout again. Great speakers too!
  85. [marcysutton] I would love to make it to that some day.
  86. [michiel] Yeah would be good to have you. We're not in the states yet though.
  87. [michiel] UK, Netherlands, and Germany at the moment.
  88. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 20:51
    [marcysutton] I figured it would overlap with an overseas talk at some point
  89. [michiel] I'm trying to get one to FullFrontal in Brighton :)
  90. [michiel] That's in November.
  91. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 21:11
    [marcysutton] Awesome! I spoke at that last year.
  92. [michiel] Cool! This is my first time; heard it's really good.
  93. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 22:30
    [caesar] Morning!
  94. [caesar] Can I ask everybody: do you cone from a development background or some other discipline? Do you think developer skills are essential in order to be a good a11y practitioner?
  95. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 22:39
    [cordelia] I think there are a lot of different roles in accessibility so it kind of depends. My path into accessibility was full-stack development, front-end development, user experience design, then accessibility. I write Javascript pretty much every day so I am mostly an accessibility-focused developer, but there are a lot of accessibility roles where you don’t need to be a developer.
  96. [alacker] I'm a developer, but I think there is a lot of need in many areas, especially in product, design, and UX
  97. ABM-Dan
    @ABM-Dan
    Sep 12 22:42
    +1
  98. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 22:42
    [lefthandev] Hi Caesar, as Cordelia wisely points out, there's much more to accessibility than technical accessibility.
  99. [cordelia] +1, I think the most important thing for accessibility is an understanding of what is good and bad UX
  100. [alacker] that too, my statement was for web accessibility, which is only a small part of everything
  101. ABM-Dan
    @ABM-Dan
    Sep 12 22:42
    It's a frequent joke made by people not invested in accessibility how accessible resources are usually ugly
  102. which reinforces the image that you either make pretty products OR accessible products.
  103. And the false dichotomy gets perpetrated.
  104. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 22:47
    [cordelia] If you have a good understanding of what makes for an accessible and great UX, you can apply that understanding in a number of ways — writing the code, designing a beautiful accessible UI, researching alternatives, educating creators about accessibility, teaching people how to use access technology, etc. Lots of different things you can do as an a11y practitioner!
  105. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 22:53
    [lefthandev] +100
  106. [caesar] Thanks @cordelia
  107. [caesar] In my experience I agree that Accessibility is a kind of sub-/super-set of usability in general.
  108. [hhillen] dev experience can really make a difference in contributing to accessibility fixes and solutions, and particularly help other devs do his. But without it you can still achieve a lot with testing, QA, training, evangelizing, etc.
  109. [caesar] I work as an accessibility tester, but I didn't come from a dev background, so sometimes it is a little challenging for me. (My background is marketing)
  110. [hhillen] I would say a lot of people in A11Y come from a user or education angle
  111. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 22:58
    [caesar] My biggest challenge as a tester is that devs expect me to provide the code or solutions!
  112. [hhillen] right. This is the issue. If you can only explain the problem on a user level, the devs may not have what they need to fix it.
  113. [hhillen] It also makes it more difficult for you to know whether an issue is actually fixable and how feasible the fix is
  114. [hhillen] So the more you can explain things in ‘their’ language, the easier your and their job would be.
  115. [hhillen] That doesn’t mean that those devs shouldn’t just educate themselves on a11y and figure these things out by themselves of course
  116. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 23:08
    [lefthandev] I can see how it could be a challenge providing technical fixes without a dev background. I agree that it's much easier if the dev wants to learn, rather than be given prescribed remediation. There's a wealth of knowledgeable people here though to help :ok_hand:
  117. [hhillen] Definitely
  118. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 23:22
    [alacker] yea, I'd recommend giving them resources to figure out solutions, which is likely more sustainable than giving them the answers anyways
  119. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 23:39
    [dean] I’m not a developer. I’m a UXer.
  120. [jiatyan] @caesar I have a dev, design and UX background, but I'm in management/communication now. I learn from your folks what's technically possible, and then pass it on to the real developers.
  121. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 23:48
    [caesar] I think that's where we have a bit of a gap. Our organisation is from a traditional functional/performance/etc. testing/QA background. So basically we identify bugs and send it back to devs
  122. [caesar] But at least in those traditional areas devs will have the skill to triage/understand the problem, whereas with a11y they generally don't
  123. [caesar] What they also don't tend to have is time/budget for training
  124. [caesar] It's a big source of frustration
  125. [caesar] For everybody

  126. [karlgroves] > What they also don't tend to have is time/budget for training

    Of course they do if they felt serious about it. Imagine that instead of a11y the topic was security or HIPAA compliance. All of a sudden execs would be calling for lunch & learns

  127. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 12 23:55
    [caesar] Australia's regulatory compliance framework for private enterprise is still a bit soft. It falls under the Disability Discrimination Act 1992 (age says it all) - and the only case tested in court was Macguire v SOCOG back at the time of the 2000 Olympics
  128. [caesar] Unlike Section 508 in US
  129. [caesar] The Coles case more recently was settled out of court
  130. [alacker] I've found that it helps to file bugs with steps to reproduce. A dev might not feel capable of fixing "this page isn't compliant", but they can fix "when you tab to this input, there is no focus state", or "The contrast of these links isn't high enough, link to an online contrast checker"
  131. [karlgroves] +100 @alacker
  132. [cordelia] Yes, what I like to do when I file bugs is write detailed steps to reproduce and then a suggested fix.
  133. [karlgroves] In a lot of ways, you can take that same approach and get a lot of success. I’m conflicted about whether it has any long-term benefit, but if you have a well-worded issue entry, it is difficult to argue with.
  134. [cordelia] Sometimes suggested fix is a code sample I have written, sometimes it is a link to an ARIA spec, etc.