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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 14th of November 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 14 09:30
    [heydon] I’m shocked that you feel this way, Thierry. Why on earth have you never told anyone before?
  2. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Nov 14 10:02
    Now I'm curious about this talk.
  3. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 14 12:50

    [jpdevries] I just start all my CSS classes with yeezy__.

    Sorry. I’ll see myself out :face_with_rolling_eyes:

  4. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 14 13:29
    [michiel] Thierryk: I've been successfully writing websites that way ever since I saw it.
  5. [michiel] To me the most important part is how it makes you think about the available attributes and such
  6. [michiel] Also see: https://codepen.io/Michiel/details/zvebZO/
  7. [michiel] And sure, that first message is a bit of a “works on my machine” statement. The second one holds true though.
  8. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 14 13:34
    [michiel] That's not to say you shouldn't use classes altogether.
  9. [michiel] Just, y'know, when you need them.
  10. [michiel] Not because colleague devs are too lazy to learn HTML and css.
  11. [michiel] If you spend 1000+ hours learning some framework stuff you should spend at least that learning the basics of the web.
  12. [michiel] insert unpopular opinion puffin

  13. [jpdevries] @michiel

    If you spend 1000+ hours learning some framework stuff you should spend at least that learning the basics of the web

    I agree. This is an uphill battle in the coding bootcamp world. Lots of emphasis on JS frameworks, much less on HTML/CSS/a11y.

  14. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 14 13:40
    [michiel] Aye. And I think that's where Heydon's talk shines; it focuses on basic HTML.
  15. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 14 13:54
    [heydon] Basic HTML FTW!
    K.I.S.S.
  16. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 14 14:11
    [aisha] @jpdevries Do you teach? I’m an instructor and I do curriculum development at a bootcamp, but I’m the only one that puts any specific focus on accessibility and I haven’t had much success in getting people to agree that it should be a standard part of our curriculum.
  17. [jpdevries] @aisha Yes, I’m a Thinkful Mentor. And sounds like we are in the same boat

  18. [karlgroves] > I haven’t had much success in getting people to agree that it should be a standard part of our curriculum.

    http://www.karlgroves.com/2015/10/18/your-computer-school-sucks/

  19. [karlgroves] Bootcamps (in the US at least) that don’t teach accessible development are under-delivering. With the legal climate in the US over the last 12 months, it is no longer a case of if you’ll work at a place that has been sued over a11y, but when
  20. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 14 14:19
    [aisha] Agreed. And that piece is pretty much exactly how I feel. " This should be regarded as core knowledge that all developers must have…"
  21. [aisha] Right now, if you take a JavaScript bootcamp and I’m the instructor, you get sections on a11y and your work is evaluated with accessibility concerns in mind, even if it’s a simple lab assignment. But I don’t think our other course offerings discuss it at all. That last point about market differentiation might actually have a chance of swaying the CEO, though. Thank you!
  22. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 14 14:26
    [jpdevries] I’ve had several students at the end of our fulltime “fullstack" bootcamp not know what a <form> or <select> is. No joke. And they are supposed to be job-ready by then.
  23. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 14 14:34

    [jpdevries] > Not including accessibility from the beginning is implicit consent to incurring technical debt.
    – @karlgroves
    :raised_hands:

    I love that. Soooo true. I think part of it comes down to interpretive vs declarative. HTML is interpretive. A JS framework, something like ExtJS, is very declarative. A semantic HTML document improves with time, a non-semantic document decays with time. When ExtJS 3 came out it could do stuff standards couldn’t. Now standards runs circles around it.

  24. [karlgroves] That’s a great example.
  25. [jpdevries] It’s the story of my (MODX) life. LOL
  26. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 14 14:49
    [michiel] Not including accessibility makes you a bit like Trump.
  27. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Nov 14 15:24
    I was actually thinking of using Trump as a tool to get buy in. "So how badly do we need to include accessibility?" "Sigh. Well I guess in Trump's America we don't have to."
  28. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 14 15:39
    [karlgroves] LMAO
  29. Thierry Koblentz
    @thierryk
    Nov 14 17:28

    I’m shocked that you feel this way, Thierry.

    @Heydon, I do not see what is chocking in my statement. There are many ways to write CSS and each way has its pros and cons. I mentioned this to make sure people realize that. That it is more suited for when authors cannot really set classes as they wish…

    Why on earth have you never told anyone before?

    I did. Check my comments on this A List Apart article or even my tweets to Tim Baxter (the author). But each time I try this, the discussion shifts to “it’s important to know/use good HTML” rather than discussing “what difference it may make in term of maintenance/perf/whatever”. People should not assume that CSS authors who use classes don’t understand HTML. People deal with different problems so it makes sense that they adopt different approaches…

  30. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Nov 14 17:29
    I'm guessing @heydon was maybe sarcastic