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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 15th of November 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Nov 15 01:36
    "effortless bile"
  2. Thierry Koblentz
    @thierryk
    Nov 15 04:41
    @jkva Thanks, I may have missed the sarcasm but in doubt I preferred to reiterate ;)
  3. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 15 09:19
    [heydon] @jvka Sarcastic? Moi?
  4. [heydon] @thierryk I don’t assume folks don’t understand HTML. I see evidence of it every day of my life.
  5. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Nov 15 14:36
    Most people writing HTML seem to be Java or Javascript developers. Certainly at my company, the majority of HTML is written by Java devs.
  6. The JavaScript people I expect better from.
  7. The Java people... shrug I don't know Java.
  8. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 15 14:45

    [cameron.fawcett] Hey guys, I wanted to pick your brains on a problem I am having on my current project. It's a fairly large Angular 1.3.x project and we are animating the ng-view which is a child of the <main> when routing. On route complete I am setting programmatic focus to the <main tabindex="-1" aria-labelledby="main-heading"> but the dynamic child view has not necessarily be rendered yet when I set programmatic focus.

    The problem is it appears that the a11y tree from the dynamic content contained within the ng-view has not been updated when the DOM is updated, for NVDA (in Firefox and Chrome). When attempting to read the content (one press of the down arrow) the virtual cursor skips all of the content within the <main> and goes to the footer or it is dropped into the middle of the dynamic content that was loaded. If I try to navigate via landmarks or headings, it will say "No next heading" and I need to shift + H for it to find the h1 and h2 that was loaded in dynamically. Also, inspecting the a11y tree using DOM Inspector or Inspect it doesn't appear to update dynamically and sort of lazy loads it, i.e., waits until I manually navigate to that part of the tree.

    I've tried removing the animations and setting the programatic focus to various other elements. The only solution I got to work so far was wait with a timeout and ensure the view is loaded and then set focus to the <h1>. But this is not good UX for sighted users and is hacky while using a setTimeout to wait for the animation to finish.

    This works as expected in JAWS and VoiceOver, meaning on view load I can navigate the dynamic content with the virtual cursor. Has anyone experienced a similar situation with NVDA in SPA?

  9. Thierry Koblentz
    @thierryk
    Nov 15 16:10

    @Heydon

    I don’t assume folks don’t understand HTML. I see evidence of it every day of my life.

    Like I said, each time I tried to discuss this CSS methodology the conversation switches to "people don't understand HTML". But CSS is much more difficult to grasp than HTML. Think for a minute how many people don’t get CSS compared to how many do not get HTML. Still, I don’t go around saying “HTML people are cute trying to write CSS”. See my point? I think it’s better to try to educate people than belittling them.

  10. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 15 16:23
    [michiel] I would argue the opposite, in my experience teaching people CSS is easier than teaching them HTML.
  11. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 15 16:31

    [heydon] > I don’t go around saying “HTML people are cute trying to write CSS”.

    Neither do I?

  12. Thierry Koblentz
    @thierryk
    Nov 15 16:35
    You just did in this thread where I tried to discuss your approach. Rather than discussing the pros and cons of your method, we're arguing about CSS people who cannot write HTML. What does that have to do with "effortless styles"?
  13. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 15 16:41
    [marcysutton] And you're arguing about a talk that happened two years ago?
  14. [michiel] Are we now splitting CSS and HTML people?
  15. [michiel] You need HTML understanding to write proper CSS.
  16. [michiel] You need CSS understanding to improve your HTML presentation.
  17. [michiel] I’ve seen a split between HTML&CSS and JS before, which I can understand.
  18. [michiel] Splitting HTML and CSS into different professions is bit weird though.
  19. [michiel] That said, everyone should use CSS as they see fit. My point was—which I is why I brought up Heydon’s talk—that their talk makes you think about all the attributes that are available. It makes you think how you can select all the different elements on any given page without using classes.
  20. Thierry Koblentz
    @thierryk
    Nov 15 16:44

    @marcysutton

    And you're arguing about a talk that happened two years ago?

    Uh? How's that relevant to the discussion? I'm not "arguing about a talk", I'm discussing the pros and cons of a method presented in that video.

  21. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 15 16:44
    [michiel] Which again, isn’t to say you shouldn’t use classes at all.
  22. [marcysutton] it just seems a little odd to "warn people" about a talk that happened so long ago
  23. [michiel] Another point, you said that performance wasn’t considered in Heydon’s talk.
  24. [michiel] How is adding more code (classes) to your HTML better for performance?

  25. [heydon] > You just did in this thread where I tried to discuss your approach.

    No I didn’t.

  26. [marcysutton] maybe we should move on? take it to DM?
  27. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 15 16:52
    [heydon] Nah, I’m good. It’s not worth discussing here or DMing either. I’ve heard it all before.
  28. Thierry Koblentz
    @thierryk
    Nov 15 16:52

    @MichielBijl

    Splitting HTML and CSS into different professions is bit weird though.

    Isn't what we do when we say people who write CSS "do not understand HTML"? I'm not the one assuming that one cannot do both well.

    How is adding more code (classes) to your HTML better for performance?

    Ha, this is a better discussion. I said performance among other things (maintenance is the most important one though), but in term of performance, the classes in the markup are not as bad as the bytes in your styles sheets. That's because styles sheets are blocking. Think of listing all possible type values for input (email,text`, etc.) versus using a unique class for all those inputs.

  29. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 15 16:54
    [michiel] You mean input:not([submit]):not([button]) or something similar?
  30. Thierry Koblentz
    @thierryk
    Nov 15 16:54

    I’ve heard it all before.

    k, I won't waste everybody's time then. Bye!

  31. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 15 16:55
    [karlgroves] Dammit. I’d just gotten out the popcorn.
  32. [michiel] thierryk: re people writing CSS, to me anyway, are same people writing the HTML. Doesn’t mean they understand HTML. Doesn’t mean they know about all the attributes at their disposal. Using something like BEM, SMACSS, or the like is more forgiving, sure, but it’s also more forgiving to writing crap HTML.
  33. [karlgroves] Well, back to /r/politics
  34. [michiel] And that’s where I think Heydon’s talk comes in, it makes you think about that.
  35. [michiel] Whether you agree with the philosophy of the talk doesn’t really matter, it’s about what it makes you think about.
  36. [michiel] I for one agree with the philosophy, but can understand if people don’t.
  37. [marcysutton] There are so many different ways to build things, and for different audiences...I saw Heydon's talk as highlighting techniques for content authors who need to focus more on HTML (via Markdown) than CSS. Hence the persona.
  38. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 15 17:04
    [michiel] Indeed.
  39. [michiel] I took it a bit further and that works for me.
  40. [marcysutton] If you're worried about a counter viewpoint not being included maybe create a new talk? While remaining respectful to the original speaker and recognizing that what works for content authors might be different than your dev team's needs
  41. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Nov 15 17:21
    <div id="banner-close" class=""></div>
  42. take a guess what that HTML does?
  43. Just found this in live code being used by people today
  44. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 15 17:23
    [marcysutton] UGH so many variations of that exist in the wild
  45. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Nov 15 17:25
    I so want to just force every developer (and vendor developer) who works for us to get their mouse taken from them and forced to do various tasks on what they've built while humming the Volga Boat Song.
  46. The good news is, at least all the devs I'm working with don't seem to even question that the shit needs to be accessible. I'm still getting used to that. It's amazing.
  47. I remember when I worked at companies like Booking who, using A/B tests, decide that a11y isn't worth it because the tested accessible changes didn't earn them more money. Wish they'd get a fine.
  48. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 15 17:49
    [michiel] Convince them to become an American company and they will :P
  49. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Nov 15 17:54
    Booking no care :P
  50. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 15 17:55

    [karlgroves] > Convince them to become an American company and they will

    Not until they get sued

  51. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Nov 15 18:02
    That's getting my company's butt in gear. Long live lawsuits. They're preventing customers from remaining customers unless stuff works.
  52. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 15 18:02
    [michiel] > Wish they'd get a fine.
  53. [michiel] Karl.
  54. [spell] Hi gang! Can I please get some opinions about CynthiaSays? I have a client citing some issues based on the report it generates, that I find questionable. For example: "All visible INPUT elements must have a label, either by using a linked or containing LABEL element, or by using the ALT or TITLE attribute. Buttons are considered to be self-labeling. INPUT element does not use an ALT attribute, TITLE attribute or linked LABEL." While I agree with the first part, regarding ID/For and implicit label, it is the recommendation that ALT/TITLE be added here that I find odd. ALT is for image and TITLE, well, is that even a viable solution here? Thanks in advance!
  55. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Nov 15 18:03
    it's pretty old.
  56. alt makes no sense, but it may be referring to input type=image
  57. which does need alt as its accessible name
  58. title has been considered good enough in the past, however I don't like it, it's not available to so many users
  59. it can be available to SR users. But so can placeholders and we don't like those either.
  60. But, if there are no other accessible names for an input, technically title can suffice for the programmatically determinable. Or so I thought.
  61. But, ew.
  62. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Nov 15 18:10
    @spell "CynthiaSays?" is outdated, avoid
  63. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 15 18:17
    [karlgroves] @spell +1 to what Dr. Faulkner said
  64. [karlgroves] Grossly out of date.
  65. [karlgroves] I know a guy who made a tool...
  66. [marcysutton] haha
  67. [spell] When @stevef and @karlgroves both say avoid something, then I avoid it! Thanks, gents!
  68. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Nov 15 18:23
    @spell http://wave.webaim.org/ is a neat tool
  69. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 15 18:24
    [marcozehe] Heheh
  70. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Nov 15 18:24
    Is CynthiaSays measuring against 508?
  71. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 15 18:25
    [spell] Yes. Actually, you can select which guidelines you wish to validate against.
  72. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Nov 15 18:26
    Oh. 508 is so old I figure anything that tests against it would still be valid for those old regulations. Internally we also have old crap like stuff about client-side image maps etc. Stuff I normally ignore because I wouldn't allow any client side image maps to begin with.
  73. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 15 18:26
    [spell] Yeah, @stevef, I will see if I can get client to move away from the old stuff!
  74. [spell] It might be valid, sure, and point you made regarding input image type was good. Likely what is referring to. I just find title to be a bit of outdated advice, for sure.
  75. [michiel] aXe and Tenon are pretty neat, too.
  76. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 15 18:35
    [karlgroves] All tools’ rulesets are based on their creator’s interpretation of standards - some of which may be driven by an inaccurate understanding. The use title attribute, for instance, wouldn’t pass Tenon. While the title attribute does contribute to accessible name calc, Tenon is opinionated. A visible label is always best. Title only appears visibly on hovering and is therefore never available to Voice Dictation users.
  77. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 15 18:46
    [spell] Agreed.
  78. [marcysutton] is apparently a rabble rouser
  79. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Nov 15 18:52
    yeah that's still in our guidelines (title as a last resort) that I'd actually like to remove for speech and cog reasons
  80. I was using github with Dragon and I had no idea what to call the little picture of my avatar with the down arrow
  81. it's in the code and if you look it up in devtools that name works, but jeez.
  82. And since my mouse control seems to have a bug, I can only mouse grid it but can't mouse move it.
  83. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Nov 15 19:34

    \@marcysutton\ is apparently a rabble rouser

    right on!

  84. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 15 19:51
    [marcysutton] We don't need to be having "arguments" in here anyway, like minded folks don't need to fight each other.
  85. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Nov 15 22:16
    @marcysutton who's arguing?
  86. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 15 22:18
    [marcysutton] nobody anymore, that whole thing started with a statement from Thierry wanting to "warn everyone" about a two-year-old talk on CSS for content authors
  87. [marcysutton] I actually removed my comment from Slack because debating is healthy, but it stuck around on Gitter
  88. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 15 23:22
    [karlgroves] IMO respectful disagreement is a good thing. Thierry just went about it all wrong. Disappointing, IMO. Would’ve liked to seen a good conversation on that topic.
  89. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 15 23:49
    [shawn.henning] That sinking feeling when colleagues tout a new web site and you investigate only to find out it is horrible on the accessibility front. Asana is likely something to avoid...
  90. [shawn.henning] I brought one of our FE over to give an example of a modal that does not get focus while you are stuck behind it...
  91. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 15 23:56
    [caesar] Always fun.