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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 14th of August 2015

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    04:21
    [Francis Storr, a11y] Well, this is a weird VoiceOver bug. I’m putting a simple example page together on how to markup tables, and if you create a table without <th> elements, VoiceOver refuses to identify it as a table. It’s as it it doesn’t exist on the page. Can’t get to it via the rotor or CMD+OPT+CTRL+T, or the item picker.
  2. zakim-robot
    05:41
    [Alice Boxhall, a11y] WAI https://mobile.twitter.com/jaffathecake/status/615525572106678272
  3. stevefaulkner
    05:52
    @alice 'data vs layout table' in Firefox http://asurkov.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/data-vs-layout-table.html
  4. stevefaulkner
    07:32

    A11ySlackers chat log 13th of August 2015 http://w3c.github.io/a11ySlackers/archives/2015/08/2015-08-13.html

  5. zakim-robot
    09:37
    [Dean Birkett, a11y] Hey all! I’m doing some work for a hotel website at present, and I have noticed that they all seem to open up external links in new windows - eg - https://www.google.com/hotelfinder/#search;l=Amsterdam,+Netherlands;d=2015-08-30;n=10;usd=1;h=8153071608663830681;ph=1;si=4752f756;av=d (if you press book it opens Booking.com in a new window), is this best practice? it’s the common behaviour for this type of site it seems, but doesn’t make it right!
  6. StommePoes
    09:41
    is it for a good reason?
  7. StommePoes
    09:41
    saving unsubmitted form into?
  8. StommePoes
    09:41
    s/into/info
  9. zakim-robot
    09:44
    [Dean Birkett, a11y] Screen Shot 2015-08-14 at 11.42.51
  10. StommePoes
    09:49
    like, visually, without exploring any mystery meat, i would expect for example the view Deal to be a link that goes to the next page (where my back button would bring me baack to the screenshot page).
  11. StommePoes
    09:49
    But the map? Often the map is a popup, or the things that are 1-2 sentence explanations like Free breakfast or Free cancellation
  12. StommePoes
    09:49
    so actually rather popups than new windows.
  13. StommePoes
    09:50
    Some sites are so poorly or javascriptly-written that as a user I can't assume I can hit my back button to get back to this very page after I've visited, say, the expedia link though.
  14. StommePoes
    09:50
    If I can't always get back to exactly this page, prices unchanged due to my visit of the other pages, then a new window might be arguable.
  15. zakim-robot
    09:51
    [Dean Birkett, a11y] When you visit the expedia link, do you expect it to open in a new tab then?
  16. StommePoes
    09:51
    Looking at this page i've never seen, I'd expect 50-50 either way
  17. StommePoes
    09:51
    due to my past experiences
  18. StommePoes
    09:51
    And because of at least 50% doing the new window thing, I may automatically open it with a right click new tab, just so I have the control.
  19. StommePoes
    09:52
    But there's an argument out there that a majority of users, while they would rather have the control, don't know how to do it. I dunno if that's factually true.
  20. StommePoes
    09:53
    So some argue that because a majority don't know how to "force"a new window, it's "safer" to just do it. I don't think I agree, but without knowing the truth of the first statement I can't say either way. My personal preference is "forward links except for 1-2 sentence explanations (those prolly should be popups or <details>-style things), non-HTML entities (PDFs etc), and leaving filled-in-but-not-submitted forms.
  21. StommePoes
    09:53
    "
  22. zakim-robot
    09:54
    [Dean Birkett, a11y] thanks - I need to look into this more, I wondered the impact from an accessibility perspective. My hypotheses is that the best experience would be to open in the same tab, but with the back button returning you to the previous page and state.
  23. StommePoes
    09:54
    That is, if a forward link causes harm (loss of data, or because we cannot assume a browser has caching on or that it can open non-HTML documents), a new window could be argued all the time there.
  24. StommePoes
    09:54
    Indeed, users have consistantly shown in studies that they know how to use the back button, and do use it.
  25. StommePoes
    09:55
    so long as the back button can bring you back to the previous state.
  26. StommePoes
    09:55
    More and more pages are changing their states, which gets confusing fast for many.
  27. StommePoes
    09:55
    Some of these "compare" sites will change their prices knowing you've looked at a fare, for example. Which I feel is unethical but it happens.
  28. StommePoes
    09:56
    Or, with hotels and maps, it's not uncommon for users who, while they've opened the map to see wherre the hotel is in relation to somethign they care about (airport, station, destination), they may also want to explore the other hotels via the map itself. At that point, if the map is same-tab and not a popup, I feel the developer needs to add something extra and specific besides the back button to allow the userr to find that first hotel again.
  29. zakim-robot
    09:57
    [Dean Birkett, a11y] Yeah, I think Google Hotel Finder have integrated map & list very well, it’s a pretty seamless experience, which is something that you can’t say for a number of other hotel booking sites
  30. StommePoes
    09:57
    so, still not an argument FOR new tabs/windows, but user research and usability (also accessibility here) should be used to determine what people do, and if something extra needs to be added to accomodate human nature.
  31. StommePoes
    09:58
    I use Booking.com and they use a popup I believe, or they used to. But I think they also had given your selected hotel on the map a different colour so that even if you explored away from it, you could zoom out and find it again (and click "forward" again to it).
  32. StommePoes
    09:58
    not sure if they still do that, they are always tweaking their stuff. But they do almost all of that tweaking based on A/B testing.
  33. StommePoes
    09:59
    Anyway so for a site this complex as your screenshot, for accessibility you probably actually have to test real users, or find a study of similar sites that tested real users.
  34. StommePoes
    10:00
    To see if for example magnification or screen readers or switch-control had more/less trouble with new windows/tabs than non-AT userrs.
  35. stevefaulkner
    10:00
    opening up new windows for everything is real old skool
  36. StommePoes
    10:00
    For cognative, I'll bet regular user testing suffices
  37. StommePoes
    10:00
    @stevefaulkner not in the netherlands. The populace has been trained to open ALL THE THINGS in new windows. Makes me puke cause I can't force them not to.
  38. StommePoes
    10:01
    My browserr's always filled with waaay too many tabs, all with busted back buttons. Half because I open stuff that way like from twitter (cause they have InfinitelyStupidScroll), other half because it's like a Dutch pasttime.
  39. stevefaulkner
    10:01
    @StommePoes i like the new tab opening for links thing for web apps like gmail etc
  40. StommePoes
    10:02
    I can't comment on gmail because it's so massively broken for file sharing, but yeah I don't expect clicking on an attachment in a mail to move my mailbox page forward to the attachemnt
  41. StommePoes
    10:02
    I've never hit "back" to the mail
  42. StommePoes
    10:03
    But it's way too complicated for a stupid like me. I need simplicity. I use mutt for everything not work. Mutt is so nice.
  43. zakim-robot
    10:03
    [Dean Birkett, a11y] Agreed Steve, it’s just that all sites I’ve come across in this domain do it - and I’m writing a best practice document, but I don’t believe that it is the best practice
  44. StommePoes
    10:03
    However Dean, you will also have to hold reckoning with user expectations, which is already created outside your control by those other sites.
  45. zakim-robot
    10:04
    [Dean Birkett, a11y] yup
  46. StommePoes
    10:04
    Even if they all do something vaguely harmful or confusing, it may be more harmful and confusing not to do it, in this narrow space.
  47. StommePoes
    10:04
    But if it causes outright issues with userrs of AT, that can be an exccellent reason to say otherwise in your document.
  48. StommePoes
    10:04
    But you need research and I dunno of any, I only know some usability ones
  49. StommePoes
    10:05
    I'm thinking baymard institute, they just did a ginormous e-commerce usability study, with mobile too, and these sorts of sites were part of that (along with retailers)
  50. StommePoes
    10:09
    https://www.youeye.com/blog/youeye-interviews-christian-holst-baymard-institute-co-founder/
  51. zakim-robot
    10:10
    [Dean Birkett, a11y] Thanks!
  52. zakim-robot
    10:10
    [Dean Birkett, a11y] (again)
  53. StommePoes
    10:15
    This keeps coming up again and again http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG-TECHS/G200.html but I'd still want to see some current, and non-tiny, user studies. And possibly cross-nation, as I get the idea that while in the netherlands everyone opens everything in new tabs/windows, it's less prevalent in the States and maybe other english-speaking countries.
  54. stevefaulkner
    10:18

    [Dean Birkett, a11y] Agreed Steve, it’s just that all sites I’ve come across in this domain do it - and I’m writing a best practice document, but I don’t believe that it is the best practice

    :+1:

  55. MichielBijl
    10:30
    @StommePoes what is the name of that contrast checker (with the lines around text) ook al weer?
  56. MichielBijl
    10:34
    “I was once proud to be at Apple, proud of Apple's reputation of advancing ease of use and understanding. Alas, these attributes are fast disappearing from their products in favor of pretty looks, or as designers call it "styling."”
  57. MichielBijl
    10:34
    http://www.jnd.org/dn.mss/apples_products_are.html
  58. MichielBijl
    10:34
    That is spot on…
  59. StommePoes
    11:20
    don norman++
  60. StommePoes
    11:20
    @michiel you mean the one Iposted a screenshot of with dark adn light? That's Sina's uni
  61. StommePoes
    11:20
    north carolina chrome-plugin contrast checker
  62. StommePoes
    11:21
    for my birthday I'm gonna ask for his classic book
  63. StommePoes
    11:22
    and specifically request one with the messed-up hand-burner tea pot on the cover
  64. MichielBijl
    11:38
    Thanks!
  65. MichielBijl
    11:38
    Does any one know if there is a mac app? #lazy
  66. stevefaulkner
    12:15
    @dean 9. Opening New Browser Windows http://www.nngroup.com/articles/top-10-mistakes-web-design/
  67. MichielBijl @MichielBijl sends that to some PM's
  68. MichielBijl
    15:03
    Question: to make sections discoverable by AT, should we link them via describedby?
  69. MichielBijl
    15:03
    <section aria-describedby="result-heading">
    <h2 id="result-heading">Resultaat</h2>
    </section>
  70. MichielBijl
    15:03
    Something like that
  71. StommePoes
    15:11
    I've done that myself but I heard later that simply having a heading as the first thing in a section was good enough.
  72. LjWatson
    15:12
    Does anyone know of a good source for learning the basics of data visualisation?
  73. LjWatson
    15:12
    Reason is that we're developing an ARIA graphics module that will (amongst other things) provide roles and attributes for identifying things and relationships in SVG data visualisations.
  74. LjWatson
    15:13
    Seems like a good way to identify some of the basic building blocks might be a teaching resource on the subject of data visualisation - but it's not my field, so I don't know of any good options.
  75. StommePoes
    15:13
    Dunno where but have you hooked up with @shepazu?
  76. StommePoes
    15:14
    since he's been near that area lately
  77. LjWatson
    15:14
    @Shepazu is one of the people working on this.
  78. MichielBijl
    15:14
    Wondering about the markup for this: http://agosto.nl/dir/dump/Screen%20Shot%202015-08-14%20at%2017.13.47.png
  79. MichielBijl
    15:15
    It shows a heading (level 2: result), and two sections labeled "best result" and "alternative results"
  80. MichielBijl
    15:15
    Both sub sections have product info next to them
  81. MichielBijl
    15:16
    I'm thinking both section labels should be level 3 headings. With the product name/section label as a level 4.
  82. MichielBijl
    15:16
    On the other hand, could this be a dl with level 3 headings for the product name/section label?
  83. LjWatson
    15:16
    @MichielBijl is there content between the would be h3 and h4?
  84. MichielBijl
    15:16
    No
  85. StommePoes
    15:16
    the stuff on the left looks like they're the "main" headings and the Zwaluwe Silicone looks like then one step lower
  86. MichielBijl
    15:16
    @LjWatson no content between it
  87. LjWatson
    15:17
    Speaking personally, I'm not a huge fan of consecutive headings without content between. Might be a personal thing though...
  88. StommePoes
    15:17
    so, h2 "resultaat", h3 "beste resultaat", h4 Zwalue... h3 alternatieve resultaten, h4, h4, h4...
  89. MichielBijl
    15:17
    @StommePoes right. In this example there is only one alternative, but contain multiple
  90. StommePoes
    15:18
    Sometimes you don't get to the content until you're a few labels in... @ljWatson would would you do for some of those labels then?
  91. MichielBijl
    15:18
    @LjWatson I share that feeling in some cases; that's why I'm wondering if a definition list would make sense here.
  92. MichielBijl
    15:19
    There is content under the h1 and h2 headings
  93. StommePoes
    15:19
    might also depend if that contet can change, there will likely never be anything between h2 "results" and the first h3 "best result" and then h4 name-of-first-result....
  94. LjWatson
    15:19
    @StommePoes not sure because I don't really know exactly what sort of content there is.
  95. MichielBijl
    15:19
    I can work out a code example
  96. StommePoes
    15:19
    and englishify it
  97. MichielBijl
    15:19
    With mockup data
  98. MichielBijl
    15:19
    Yeha
  99. MichielBijl
    15:19
    Hold on
  100. LjWatson
    15:19
    @StommePoes not sure because I'm not sure what content there is exactly.
  101. StommePoes
    15:20
    @LjWatson I mean in general, so if it matters for this content, we wait for a code version then. But I've come across this more than once
  102. StommePoes
    15:20
    where you have a section with, for example, results (headed by a heading) then those results are divided into types of results (with headings) and then within the types, each result itself, if lots of content under it, might also begin with a heading
  103. StommePoes
    15:21
    you can have a bunch of headings before you get to the first content since they're all subcategrories where the heading name is as self-explanatory as you can get (so no subcontent).
  104. LjWatson
    15:21
    @StommePoes that's probably a reasonable use case for consecutive headings I should think.
  105. StommePoes
    15:23
    ...and a dl? I dunno, it could be a DL but it seems like there's probably always only 1 "best result" and then after that there could be more "alternative results" and that's always then a DL with only 2 DTs
  106. StommePoes
    15:23
    if there were more chunks of types of results, I'd be more pro DL, I luv me sum DLs
  107. StommePoes
    15:24
    visually they pull those "best result" and "alternative results" to the left and everything else sits right, as if this were 2 columns, which does make you think visually on tables and DLs, but... probably really just headings+ps.
  108. MichielBijl
    15:27
    I've prepared two code examples, the first one has consecutive headings: http://s.codepen.io/Michiel/debug/bf40bb437eecc9e859c6c429b63141c3?
  109. MichielBijl
    15:27
    The second one, uses a definition list: http://s.codepen.io/Michiel/debug/7563181c52fe9245e58a9dc7cce9bffe?
  110. StommePoes
    15:28
    I'm still kinda leanin' against DLs for this one, but I think that's a code preference and either should be ok, esp if a DL can lower the proliferation of mating headings in the wild...
  111. StommePoes
    15:28
    I gotta go catch a train, laterz
  112. MichielBijl
    15:29
    Thanks Mallory
  113. MichielBijl
    15:30
    What do you think @LjWatson
  114. MichielBijl @MichielBijl should write a blog post about all these questions; seems more people have similar questions.
  115. zakim-robot
    17:32
    [dylanb, a11y] @stevef: remember I promised some free content to ship with aXe? Here is a preview - comments welcome https://gist.github.com/dylanb/f202e9882fe7c5edc82e
  116. garcialo
    17:52
    @dylanb Very nice. =)
  117. stevefaulkner
    18:13
    @dylanb :+1:
  118. zakim-robot
    18:17
    [dylanb, a11y] coming soon to an aXe extension near you :simple_smile: