Publishing Business Group Telco — Minutes
Date: 2018-11-13/14
See also the Agenda and the IRC Log
Attendees
Present: Yu-Wei Chang (Yanni), Julie Blair, Bobby Tung, Daihei Shiohama, Bill Kasdorf, Liisa McCloy-Kelley, Murata Makoto, ShinyaTakami, Rick Johnson, Jeff Jaffe, Karen Myers, Jun-ichi Yoshii
Regrets:
Guests:
Chair: Liisa McCloy-Kelley
Scribe(s): Jeff Jaffe, Karen Myers
Content:
1. EPUB3 Roadmap: plan to promote EPUB3.2 as W3C REC
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: Shall we dive right in or go through Luc’s note
Murata Makoto: Not everyone has seen Luc’s note.
… a quick overview of Luc’s note would be useful.
… Is there a link to Luc’s email?
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: Luc’s message is in the agenda
Rick Johnson: To clarify, it is at the bottom of the agenda
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: At TPAC we discussed that EPUB 3.2 at the same time as EPUB 4.0 in 2020 would be confusing to the marketplace
… it would slow 3.2 adoption
… discussed how to get wide adoption of 3.2
… pointed out issues of interop
… hard to make an epub file that is guaranteed to work
… lots of bugs
… raised need for testing for all features
… how to convince the market to move forward with 3.2
… discussions at TPAC between WG and BG
… also new requirements for Audiobooks
… EPUB 3 could not do that job
… Importance of ISO to Asian participants
… (to be discussed tonight)
… with the recognition that 3.2 is only a CG today
… That led to a discussion of a EPUB 3.2 W3C Recommendation.
… fix bugs
… encourage interop
… work with reading systems
… BG would help with advice
… a REC would help encourage people to fix bugs
… get to faster adoption of ISO standard as well
… help the Asian marketplace
… with that TPAC summary, what do you think?
… is ISO important
Murata Makoto: I do not think that Japanese publishers need an ISO/IEC standard for EPUB 3.2 strongly.
Murata Makoto: But a CG report is certainly a second class citizen.
Murata Makoto: But Korea strongly like ISO/IEC standards for EPUB.
Murata Makoto: Japanese publishers don’t care
… but people care for accessibility (e.g. Daisy)
… helps with government adoption
… Korea cares
… EPUB 3.0 for ISO was Korea’s request
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: So publishers don’t care in Japan, but accessibility cares and Korea cares
Bill Kasdorf: So Korean publishers will do EPUB 3.2 because we have a TS.
Murata Makoto: We only have a TS for EPUB 3.0
Bill Kasdorf: So Koreans are stuck with 3.0?
Murata Makoto: Don’t know what they want for 3.2.
Bobby Tung: ISO important for government in Taiwan
… important for reading system for 3.2
… and globally
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: Sounds like significant portions of Asia where a 3.2 ISO would be a help. True?
Bobby Tung: Yes.
… but publishers care about when reading systems will have new version which is a global issue
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: Comments? Worries about this direction?
Bill Kasdorf: Depending on the process, is there a danger that the spec of the CG would be changed?
Murata Makoto: Quite unlikely.
… most are opposed to divergence.
… so if there are changes there will be no consensus
… I will oppose technical divergence
… e.g. Canada requested changes to 3.0
… we resisted all of them.
Bill Kasdorf: good, thanks
Jeff Jaffe: I wanted to share with folks on this call, when we did merger with IDPF
… we established a direction for Web Publications and EPUB4
… at TPAC 2018 some were concerned if staff was bought in
… for the EPUB3.2 to go onto the rec track
… from my perspective, when we agreed to merger,
… we agreed not to a fixed point strategy
… but we agreed to shepherd the community in whatever direction they feel best and we are fully supportive of that
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: Again: concerns? pros and cons?
Bobby Tung: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17CyIqihtjjzT7Abbcq9sSqLNqLGKs2cuXdg4DcFulGY/edit?usp=sharing
Jeff Jaffe: also want to add another point of interest
… Next week I’m in Beijing and in two weeks I am in Tokyo
… Keio host is arranging my schedule
… I understand it is quite busy with AB and government meetings
… but if anyone would like to discuss [publishing] this with me while in Tokyo, please get in touch with Naomi Yoshizawa
… and I’m happy to meet with people while I am there
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: thank you, Bobby, for dropping in the link to the Google doc with the pros and cons
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: We discussed having a REC track task force
… collect ideas across groups
… specific proposals
… how to get this done
… might this slow down the work of the WG?
… would we need to recharter?
Rick Johnson: The decision to look at 3.2 must mean we slow down something
… it implicitly slows down EPUB 4
… when we get Audio/Manga up to speed, it puts a governor on those
Bill Kasdorf: does it slow down WP though?
Murata Makoto: I would like to see EPUB 3 as a REC as is
… without dropping features
… validate what is in the market
… Japanese publishers already have reasonable interop
… due to EBPAJ profile
… but I understand the issue of interop in general
… with enough interest we can do it
Rick Johnson: I understand the hesitancy to remove a feature
… but unknown
… are you OK with moving forward even if we don’t know for sure
… so can we proceed with the next step?
Murata Makoto: Next step will take much effort
… Japanese publishers will not do testing again
… Do others from Japan agree?
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: My question, Makoto, do you not already feel you have two implementations of every feature in the profile
Murata Makoto: For example, in @@@, no implementation is perfect
… but publishers know to avoid certain features
… we have interop; but not at the feature level
… publishers avoid certain Unicode characters for some feature
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: So it depends on how we define a feature
… Is full Unicode support a feature, or subdividable
Murata Makoto: If we will not drop any feature in the EBPAJ profile, I will feel more comfortable.
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: Any other input?
… we don’t have such a profile for NA
… maybe that will come out of the testing
Murata Makoto: Regional profile sometimes makes sense
… e.g. for vertical writing
… not needed in NA
Bill Kasdorf: Somewhat circular
… people don’t want features removed
… but it needs 2 implementations
… if feature is widely used is it an implementation
Jeff Jaffe: the devil is in the details
… Liisa already hinted at that when she said, ‘is full Unicode compliance subdividable; interpreted that as being fully implemented
… subset feature, what has been implemented, means it is interoperable
Bill Kasdorf: that makes sense
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: When we are talking about the spec and features, we need to define what we mean.
… so we can do it in a way that we don’t lose features
… couldn’t think of such a feature at TPAC.
Jeff Jaffe: Also wanted to add
… we discussed if feature only done by single implementation
… there is option to leave it in the standard as informative rather than normative requirement
Murata Makoto: Something may be implemented by one EPUB reading system
… but still in the market
… we should not make it informative
… could be examples in ibooks
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: Here is a PRH example for scripting
… we have javascript that works well at apple and nowhere else
… works ok in other places, but not as well
… use it for popups in our kids books
… works well and pops up for 3 reading systems
… fails gracefully in 4 others
… we feed it to Amazon
… they ingest it
… I consider that to be interoperable
Murata Makoto: Are there no pubs dedicated to ibooks?
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: I have 2 titles with such extensive, convoluted, imprecise javascript
… that it only works for ibooks
… JS is a feature
… making it part of a W3C standard, then an ISO standard will help pressure other reading systems to provide support
… today, people are nervous to implement
Bobby Tung: EBPAJ EPUB 3 Creation Guide here (with English version download link) http://ebpaj.jp/counsel/guide
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: Is there a strong feeling that we should NOT move along the path of REC for 3.2.
… that this will not work
Murata Makoto: Concerned but do not oppose.
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: or are we generally supportive
Rick Johnson: We are not looking for blanket approval to go the whole way.
… we want to take the next few steps to determine our course.
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: Great point.
Murata Makoto: In Epub 3.1 some features were removed
… others were almost removed until Japan showed evidence they were used
… demonstrate interop
… are we asking Japanese users to commit to similar work for 3.2?
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: Not sure.
… In 3.1 we learned a lot about backward compatibility
… noone adopted it
… we are trying to be more deliberate
… will need participation from Japanese publishers and reading systems that we covered the needs
Rick Johnson: A fundamental requirement of 3.2 was that a 3.0 doc would be a valid 3.2 doc.
… a reset to 3.0.1.
… hence a small delta and very focused.
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: Comments? Questions? Concerns?
Murata Makoto: Does someone have a list of features to be dropped already?
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: That work has not been started.
… it would be done in the CG.
… figure out what to test.
Rick Johnson: https://w3c.github.io/publ-epub-revision/epub32/spec/epub-changes.html
Bill Kasdorf: We are not talking about dropping 3.2 features. Are we?
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: We are not talking about dropping features. We are looking at the right tests to make sure it all works.
Rick Johnson: We are not talking about dropping, but people are concerned that the REC process might cause it.
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: Need to get through next phase.
… no intention to drop.
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: Other questions?
Bill Kasdorf: Direction from the BG?
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: Looking to the task force.
Jeff Jaffe: Curious who is on the task force again?
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: Myself, Ivan, Garth, Tzviya, Wendy, Luc, and Dave
Jeff Jaffe: might it be helpful to have someone from Japan on the task force?
Murata Makoto: I am thinking of monitoring that
… will things eventually be endorsed by PubBG
… I should make comments in the task force.
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: Thanks, Makoto.
2. Epub Check
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: Development for EPUB check is underway
… we are fundraising
… please see if your marketplace/businesses can help crowdsource the funding.
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: https://www.w3.org/publishing/epubcheck_fundraising
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: simple
… sign-up
… decide what to contribute
… credit card or we can bill you if you prefer
Karen Myers: Where are contributors acknowledged?
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: Contributors logos will be on download page
… meanwhile on fundraising page
… on track for development to be done in February
… so we are working on enabling reading systems
… talking to Apple
Bill Kasdorf: Logos on download page does not get more donations
… should update contributor page
Karen Myers: +1 BillK
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: Names are there, but no logos yet.
… again, Jeff will be in Asia; happy to meet
… thanks for calling in, all.
Jeff Jaffe: [adjourned]