Publishing Business Group Telco — Minutes

Date: 2019-02-12

Attendees

Present: Wendy Reid, Ivan Herman, Murata Makoto, Wolfgang Schindler, Luc Audrain, Junko Kamata, Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平), Cristina Mussinelli, Dave Cramer, Mateus Teixeira, Bill Kasdorf, Jun-ichi Yoshii, Garth Conboy, Ric Wright, George Kerscher, Jeff Jaffe, Tzviya Siegman, Rachel Comerford, Karen Myers, Laurent Le Meur, Julian Calderazi

Regrets: Rachel Comerford, Derek Jackson, Jens Klingelhöfer, Avneesh Singh, Liisa McCloy-Kelley

Guests:

Chair: Luc Audrain

Scribe(s): Dave Cramer

1. Timing and frequencies of the calls

Luc Audrain: we’ve started to talk about changing the times of bg calls
… every two weeks we’d have a Euro-friendly time, and and two weeks later an Asia-friendly time

Garth Conboy: Garth: I should have updated all the invites per what Luc is saying now.

Luc Audrain: so one call would be at 0 UTC, and one at 17UTC

Bill Kasdorf: I got eight updates–should I accept them all?

Murata Makoto: can we make the euro call one hour earlier?

Luc Audrain: it’s the same agenda

Ivan Herman: is the japanese call in one week or two weeks?

Luc Audrain: two weeks

Garth Conboy: PBG Meetings:

Garth Conboy: - Tues Feb 12th – 12:00p Eastern (repeat every four weeks)

Garth Conboy: - Tues Feb 26th – 7:00p Eastern (repeat every four weeks)

Luc Audrain: the agenda of today will be the Asia-friendly agenda of two weeks from now

Ivan Herman: this means we will have BG only once a month, for Luc and I

Luc Audrain: yes, unless there is some urgent subject that needs a decision

Ivan Herman: I am not absolutely sure I like this

Murata Makoto: can a meeting make a decision? Because two weeks later there will be another meeting with different people
… which can make a decision

Luc Audrain: we can share decisions

Ivan Herman: it will be very far away in terms of time
… my feeling was that we would have, every second week, a meeting like now, and every second week an Asia-friendly meeting
… people could join both, or once
… so we would meet every two weeks at least
… this way there is one BG call per month
… I don’t think this will help in maintaining a regular discussion

Mateus Teixeira: +1 to ivan

Garth Conboy: I was going to split the difference
… having a BG call once a week seems too frequent, even if it alternates
… but maybe have a meeting every two weeks, but not with the same agenda

Murata Makoto: sometimes because of agenda people have to attend anyway
… for example today has ISO topics, so I feel obligated to attend

Ivan Herman: so if we have alternate time zones each week but repeating agenda, it would be better
… having one meeting a month is detrimental to the group

Luc Audrain: the idea is to have the same agenda
… ivan, you think it should be every week (with alternate time zones)

Bill Kasdorf: I’m persuaded that every week alternating makes sense
… if there’s only a once-a-month call, then you might miss two months if you have to miss a meeting

Tzviya Siegman: the call that I held for the PWG asian members…
… those who participated were not interested in a call at an Asia-friendly time
… we should ask the people in Asia what they want

Bill Kasdorf: Avneesh has an issue with both times as well

Tzviya Siegman: it’s not about what looks better, it’s what is actually convenient

Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): let me review
… every other week, was a question
… we felt strongly we should set up the time which Asian people could participate better
… one of the directions of PBG in 2019 is to streamline discussions
… and moving towards industry interests
… and then conveyed to the WG
… the scope and agenda should be narrowed
… and then have one call friendly to Europe, and one to Asia
… and talk about the same agenda
… and we’ll have the minutes of the first call as material for the second call
… and most US people can join both meetings
… the second meeting is a good time to make a decision
… I’m not going against the once a week idea
… but I want to remind you of why we proposed today’s schedule

Luc Audrain: https://w3c.github.io/publ-bg/Meetings/Minutes/2019/2019-01-29-pbg

Luc Audrain: I will put the link where we discussed this option, and approved it

Ric Wright: I’m concerned about duplicate agendas, but Daihei addressed that

Murata Makoto: what Daihei said is interesting… everyone is going to suffer in the same way
… when ISO topics are discussed, I am the liaison from SC34.
… if I’m here I can explain, but if I’m not here I can’t
… will European people be able to understand what is going on in ISO?

Luc Audrain: we have reorganized the agenda. the first section is just informational–not discussion
… some European people involved in ISO, like me, could explain
… and if questions came up, they could be addressed on the next call
… we can try the every week thing; I think it’s too many calls but we could try it

Ivan Herman: when you say too many calls, it’s the same as now
… for US people it may be a lot of calls, but they can choose which calls

Luc Audrain: for Liisa or Daihei, it will be a call every week.

Ivan Herman: US people can choose. They can choose which call to join.
… they are not obliged to be on all calls

Garth Conboy: PBG Meetings:

Garth Conboy: - Tues Feb 12th – 12:00p Eastern (repeat every two weeks)

Garth Conboy: - Tues Feb 19th – 7:00p Eastern (repeat every two weeks)

Luc Audrain: so the resolution would be alternate-time calls, but every week

Luc Audrain: resolution : alternate time calls every week with same agenda

Luc Audrain: any objection?

Wolfgang Schindler: +1

Luc Audrain: we will try and see how it goes?

2. ISO work

Luc Audrain: in 2019 there will be three topics starting
… 3.0.1 as international standard
… new work item on EPUB a11y
… and LCP/DRM for EPUB
… it’s starting; there are meetings scheduled in Milano at the end of March, and at the end of may in Ottawa
… and then in Fukuoka before TPAC

George Kerscher: a comment: we’ve been asked not to call it DRM for EPUB, we don’t want to use that trademark with an ISO specification

George Kerscher: this is just a matter of the trademark
… and don’t want another organization using the trademark

Laurent Le Meur: I will propose it’s called DRM for Electronic Publications

Murata Makoto: I’ve already explained that possibility, and they’re OK with that

Luc Audrain: this work is starting; we’ll make you aware after the meetings

3. event calendar

Luc Audrain: we’ve planned to set up a google calendar, to collect publishing industry events
… any of us can send events of interest to the chairs
… and all can read
… regionally or globally
… any questions?
… send any events to the chairs.

4. next steps for EPUB 3.2

Luc Audrain: we are on the verge of seeing EPUBCheck validating EPUB 3.2
… it’s being worked on by DAISY
… and there’s been a 4.2 alpha already
… there are small tweaks to the spec itself
… but when the first beta of 4.2 is released, scheduled on Feb 25
… we hope there will be strong stability of the EPUB 3.2 report from the Community Group
… then the next question will be getting support for adoption
… and we should communicate that around the world

Dave Cramer: note that most of us are already producing EPUB 3.2 :)
… but it may take a while for reading system ingestion pipelines to upgrade to the new EPUBCheck
… and thus allow the new features allowed by 3.2 that aren’t in 3.1

Luc Audrain: we could demo a file that is validated by the new EPUBCheck and also use ACE
… it would be nice to have a practical event

Luc Audrain: that ends the informational part of the meeting
… now we hope to discuss more about the AB meetup

5. AB meetup

Luc Audrain: this brought interest in local meetups
… Liisa would have made the report, but she is ill
… could someone else recap the meeting for us?

Tzviya Siegman: I thought it was successful
… it showed the pub community what working on web standards is like
… and it showed people on the AB and W3T about the business side of publishing
… Dave’s history of EPUB starting in 1999, and the stories that Liisa told about interop told a great story of what it’s like to work on EPUB, and how it differs from the web
… and good info was shared by berjon & tink about the time committments/timelines for working on browsers
… it was a bit terrifying
… it was a small group–twenty to thirty. there were a lot of side conversations. it was a chance to build relationships.
… that was part of the success. it was fun.
… selected speakers and targeted topics were a key to success
… i think such events would be valuable in the future

Karen Myers: +1 Tzviya for organizing the program and speakers

Luc Audrain: we should propose this type of event as an alternative to conferences
… and could be good networking
… how could we manage to set up these kinds of meetups locally

Tzviya Siegman: and +1 to Karen for all the work in organizing the event in such a short time!

Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): Yoshii-san and I had a discussion about this
… first of all, taking the opportunity for a F2F is important
… having actual conversation is good
… taking advantage of TPAC in Fukuoka, we talked about APL etc and discussed with Keio, and organize some sort of publishing summit
… doesn’t have to be same as in SF two years ago
… but have something similar to AB meetup
… and have atmosphere where free conversation is possible, and have both business and tech people present personally

Murata Makoto: Before TPAC or after TPAC?

Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): we haven’t figured out details
… during, before, or after
… APL and W3C Keio can coordinate
… and then we will present to PBG

Murata Makoto: ISO meetings (in particular, JWG7) will happen before TPAC.

Ivan Herman: two questions, one is before or after?
… and where? at the place of TPAC or in Tokyo?

Tzviya Siegman: the summit in SFO was valuable, for those of us involved in W3C doing something in TPAC is hard. We’re often triple-booked. I’d encourage doing it before or after rather than during

Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): q＋

Luc Audrain: the ISO meetings will be the week before TPAC

Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): taking advantage of TPAC in Fukuoka, with people already there
… it would be very difficult to organize away from TPAC
… we want to do in Fukuoka

Ivan Herman: +1 for Fukuoka

Luc Audrain: dauwhe: AB Meetup exchange with business people

Luc Audrain: … but business people not at TPAC

Rachel Comerford: +1 dauwhe

Mateus Teixeira: +1

Wendy Reid: +1

Ivan Herman: It’s a problem, we did succeed in getting people in getting people to the Hotel in California
… which were not the usual suspects

Karen Myers: I wanted to make sure that if the event happens during TPAC, you need to get in touch with meeting planners at W3C, like Naomi and and Alexandra
… there are a lot of logistical things, and would need to modify contracts unless it’s entirely offsite
… and we may need to think about weekends or evenings

Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): q＋

Luc Audrain: I agree with Ivan
… with Daihei can make something interesting from this opportunity

Rachel Comerford: Daihei added himself first

Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): To follow up on Karen’s point
… Murai and Yoshi are involved
… and Naomi Yoshizawa will help coordinate logistics

Rachel Comerford: my concern about doing this during TPAC, in addition to what Dave said
… it does isolate us from the rest of the W3C community, thus we can’t participate in other things, we can’t contribute to other groups
… I was invited to a11y group meetings, but I couldn’t because of a publishing event
… which makes it harder to do outreach for publishing

Mateus Teixeira: +1

Wendy Reid: +1

Rachel Comerford: I won’t want to end up in a silo

Dave Cramer: +10^1100

Tzviya Siegman: there were many people in Burlingame from a11y, CSSWG, etc. who would have wanted to attend but had conflicts
… it built a wall between publishing and the rest of W3C

Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): q＋

Luc Audrain: I don’t know if this might be an evening networking event

Ivan Herman: I agree with the concerns

Luc Audrain: dahei q+

Ivan Herman: I thought that Daihei’s idea was before or after TPAC, which would avoid the problems

Karen Myers: +1 before or after TPAC in Japan

Ivan Herman: but it is a longer stay in japan for some

Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): we would like to extend and spirit of the AB meetup
… to the TPAC meeting
… we have no intention to obstruct any opportunities at tpac
… so it doesn’t work during TPAC time to have a publishing meeting
… either before or after, or outside of TPAC programmed time
… I’ll bring this back to APL and W3C/Keio

Karen Myers: +1 Daihei’s approach to evaluate further and figure it out

6. pop-up content

Luc Audrain: we also had planned a discussion on pop-up content
… expectations we have as a reader or as a publisher
… why would we use popped-up content
… do we have strong opinions about this? For footnotes or other things?
… and share the value of developing more precise standards or best practices?

Dave Cramer: EPUB spec doesn’t stop this
… can of worms
… if we gather expectations, we have a better chance of this coding working without JS
… by using epub:type

Wolfgang Schindler: I see two use cases
… one is a glossary
… such a popup might be good
… if you have a second EPUB as an external source dictionary, click on a world and get a dictionary entry
… there is an EPUB spec for that

Bill Kasdorf: figures and tables popping up would be useful too

Luc Audrain: acl tzviya

Tzviya Siegman: I can think of hundreds of uses, however I will remind everyone that we’re phasing out epub:type and phase in aria roles
… and those footnote popups don’t work in most reading systems
… and they are unreliable

Mateus Teixeira: +1 to no epub:type; use ARIA roles

Luc Audrain: we are speaking about expectations
… today EPUB 3 is running with epub:type
… and aria roles are devoted to a11y

Luc Audrain: next call is next week at 0 UTC

Garth Conboy: and this is the same agenda as this week’s call

Luc Audrain: yes, I will send agenda with link to minutes