Publishing Business Group Telecon — Minutes
Date: 28 May 2019
See also the Agenda and the IRC Log
Attendees
Present: Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平), Dave Cramer, Shinya Takami, Junko Kamata, Wendy Reid, Jun’Ichi Yoshii, Murata Makoto
Regrets:
Guests:
Chair: Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平)
Scribe(s): Dave Cramer, Wendy Reid
Content:
Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): let’s get started
1. audio books
Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): the web publication framework can be a framework for profiles
… and audio books is an example
… we should know the status of the audiobook standard in US and Europe
… can someone give us an update?
Wendy Reid: the spec should be published as fpwd very soon
… we are reaching out to publishers in north america and europe
… we’ve had limited success with american publishers and apa (audio publisher’s association)
… but apa has been reluctant to work with us
… for reasons we don’t fully understand
… on the euro side Luc has spoken to audiolivre
… I’ve spoken to publishers etc in the nordic countries and in the netherlands
… and I’m now in contact with a UK publisher
… I’ve spoke to Canadian publishers
… we’re getting there
… if you know of any Asian publishers interested in audio, please let me know
Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): I was speaking to Luc re: europe
… he wants to know more realistically how audiobook standard is being considered by audio publishers in europe
… so he will send out notes, to ask what they think of standardization
… and to find out what kind of tools they are using
… which could lead to knowledge about what file formats they’re using
… and then we could discuss this info in pbg
… and describe how a standard could help the industry be more efficient
… so he will get that info from Europe
… re: asia
… in Japan, audio book is very limited market so far
… smartphone and pcs–they are cabable of using audiobook formats like mp3 or flac
… since they’re used for music :)
… but business of audiobook is so limited
… so they are not eager to take a risk to develop the market
… but there are a few specialized publishers in Japan who will try to expand the market
… and those publishers could follow the standardization at w3c
… Amazon is aggressively marketing audible in Japan
… so the market might grow
… in Taiwan, ttdp representative janni mentioned it wasn’t a big market
… I don’t know about china
Wendy Reid: it sounds like there is a market, even if it’s small
… this might be a good time
… if amazan is aggressive, then this is a good time for standardization to help people keep up
… in europe they’re eager because it’s not a mature market
… we can show that a standard makes their life easier
… is there some industry organization? or do we reach out individually?
Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): any comment from anyone else?
Shinya Takami: it’s a small market, but we have interest in generating audiobooks
… we have some audiobooks with character voices
… if market gets bigger, we support standardization
… and some ebook stores have interest in distributing these
Wendy Reid: I’m a big manga reader, and I hear about live character versions
… I’m glad there’s a market
Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): anyone else?
… the smart speaker devices like amazon or google
… that’s been expanding
… and in cars
… beyond radio, ipads, etc
… there could be new places for products to be available
… podcasting is growing in Japan, too
… there are opportunities because of these new things
… we should bring this info to the pbg meeting next week
… and further discuss standardization
… any other comments?
… Luc wanted to ask what kind of tools the audiobook publishers are using most
Wendy Reid: the name that comes up is pro tools
… daisy has obi
… and there are small free options
… and there are web-based podcast tools
… but pro tools is the biggest
Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): we need to talk about wp, epub 3.2, epubcheck, the audio profile…
… are there any other profiles we want to focus on?
… anyone from japan have comments?
… my understanding is that, in the US, that kid’s books and cookbooks, with graphic oriented content
… is something that people are looking for
… there’s lots of talk about comic/manga
… but most japanese manga publishers are not keen to change formats away from epub 3
… because the market is good
… changing formats will increase costs
… and the market would be confused
… although comics/manga might be the next profile of wp, but I think more general graphic content should be the next profile
Dave Cramer: I don’t necessarily think we need a graphics oriented profile. The point of WP was to have full access with the web
… the web is overflowing with recipes and things, lots of rich graphic design, CSS is evolving with flexbox and grid
… I am not sure how this would be different from any other web publication
Murata Makoto: Takashi Asano, CTO of Media Do Intl, wrote that he would welcome standardization of vertically scrollable manga
Shinya Takami: manga content in japan is image-based fixed layout
… but we have no way to search text
… which is a problem
Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): so you’re saying web publication of manga which might be able to provide search capability
Shinya Takami: yes
… we need new functionality
… to search Japanese magazines or manga
Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): any other comments on profiles
Wendy Reid: two things
… Makoto comments about vertically-scrollable manga
… as someone who is familiar with FXL
… I think that’s a use case for reading systems. Kobo already does this.
… the spec could maybe have metadata to request that, but it should be a user setting
… the other thing… I think search could be solvable by creating epubs in a different way
… you can include text in books, that then making it searchable
… reading systems need to make this better
… I don’t think wp would address where epub couldn’t
… I don’t think wp could do better than the bon appetit website :)
Murata Makoto: First, very tall JPEG images (such as those used in webtoon) are intractable.
Murata Makoto: Second, to help the communication between editors and authors, it would be nice if we have a format that allows combination of image and text.
Murata Makoto: People would like to slightly revise text.
Murata Makoto: Rasterized text is again difficult to handle.
Murata Makoto: This is what Ogata-san said in Tokyo WS.
Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): any comments on vertical scrolling?
… web publication of manga with text search?
… we can bring this over to the pbg meeting next week
Wendy Reid: rasterized text is indeed difficult to handle
… FXL is maybe not as lovingly embraced by reading systems as it should be :)
… i’ve seen text on a separate layer, and could be edited
… that’s a style choice
… the publishers used image background and position: fixed for text
Murata Makoto: No standardized formats for the combination of text and image are available.
Wendy Reid: and that’s a solution
… some reading systems don’t support it
… it’s possible on the web
Murata Makoto: True.
Wendy Reid: it’s possible in epub3 today
… wp would be using the same html and css as epub :)
Murata Makoto: What we have to establish is an industrial convention.
Wendy Reid: I don’t think a standard would make it any better
Murata Makoto: EPUB3 can do everything. But people can do nothing without a convention
Wendy Reid: this may be a question for css?
Murata Makoto: Or, some group in Publishing@W3C might want to publish a convention.
Murata Makoto: The same thing applies to tall JPEG images. If we have a format (again a convention) for combining smaller images, we do not have to handle intractable images.
Dave Cramer: I’m not entirely clear what the problem is, I can position text wherever it is needed with CSS
… a lot of the text in manga is handwriting or art. We have made fonts of author’s handwriting
… there is not a magical solution to this problem, we could use layers or alt text
… an old spec that was never used (b&N?), there’s no way to make CSS treat art as text
Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): any comment?
Murata Makoto: This is probably not a base standard issue. This is a profile issue.
Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): we can discuss at the next meeting. dauwhe and wendyreid can help.
Murata Makoto: Next time, I will try to fix my mic.
Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): our focal point should be on business cases
… we also talked about educational / academic publications
… we can elaborate these later
2. global communication on epub 3.2 and epubcheck 4.2.1
Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): it’s already announced
… and some testimonials were already given
… one proposed apl testimonial
… (daihei reads testimonial)
… if this is to be posted, then the pbg should approve this
… any comments
Dave Cramer: +2
Jun’Ichi Yoshii: +1
Junko Kamata: +1
Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): I’ll tell w3c that we approve :)
… any ideas about pr?
… could anyone comment on this?
Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): I’m approaching industry bodies to come up with some press releases or supportive interviews
… to be in japanese industry publications
… I hope these will come out shortly
… and there are events like the digital publishing summit in Paris at the end of june
… I’ll talk there, about how epub has helped market expansion in japan
… any other news or ideas about public relations re: epub 3.2?
… today the pbg co-chair luc has sent everyone a notice about the advisory board election is until 30 May 2019
… all AC reps, please vote soon
… and consider Avneesh, our pbg colleague
Murata Makoto: +1 > dauwhe
Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): and we have the digital publishing summit program available now
… with many pbg folks speaking
… and we need to work on the program for the pbg meeting on thursday at tpac in fukuoka
… and registration is now open
… and the better price is only available until june 21
… and you can look at the registration link
… otherwise I’ll talk about prep for the tpac f2f
… it will be three hours, 9-12
… overall coordination will be done by pbg co-chairs Luc, Daihei, and Liisa
… we need to find a program committee to help us
… if you want to volunteer, please send a message to one of the chairs
… and we will provide a first draft agenda
… an intro by murai-san
… a11y in japan
… wp profiles
Murata Makoto: How much do external attendees have to pay to attend the meeting?
Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): some of the agenda could be decided by japanese pbg members and invited guests, and could be in japanese with translation
… and when people speak in english it could be translated to japanese
… makoto was asking about price for attending just the pbg f2f
… but what about outside members?
… I will have to ask w3c about this
… any comments?
… we have covered the agenda
… thanks everyone