Publishing Business Group Weekly Call — Minutes

Date: 2019-07-16

See also the Agenda and the IRC Log

Attendees

Present: Liisa McCloy-Kelley, Bill Kasdorf, Tzviya Siegman, Karen Myers, Dave Cramer, Luc Audrain, Wendy Reid, Rachel Comerford, Garth Conboy, Avneesh Singh, Mateus Teixeira, julie blair

Regrets: Ivan Herman

Guests:

Chair: Luc Audrain

Scribe(s): Karen Myers

Content:

Luc Audrain: we had a few regrets for today
… we sent out an agenda
… a bit late, so sorry for that
… We have information updates

1. Vote in PBG about Avneesh to be member of Steering Committee

Luc Audrain: Lissa, you launched the vote
… you received only +1

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: yes, we received only plus ones

Avneesh Singh: Thank you to all

Luc Audrain: So we can resolve that Avneesh is a member of the Publishing Steering Committee

2. Publishing F2F meeting at TPAC

Luc Audrain: Daihei, where are we on the agenda?

Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): The proposed agenda is sorted out lightly

Karen Myers: *EPUB3.2

Karen Myers: * @

Karen Myers: * @

Karen Myers: * @

Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): and gaming to be discussed in Japanese and English
… I will send out the program committee members
… tomorrow to ask for meeting next week
… and then we will discuss further and report back to you
… for logistics, I have requested from W3C, and Naomi Yoshizawa
… to prepare for simultaneous translations from Japanese to English and English to Japanese
… the meeting will be Thursday, 9:00am to 12:00pm; it’s on track

Luc Audrain: I understand there will be a PC call next week

Rachel Comerford: Is the draft agenda available for the PBG SC to review and comment on?

Luc Audrain: Probably not yet; we will have to work on the draft
… but we will share once it’s ready

Tzviya Siegman: I was wondering on two areas of focus
… Accessibility and Gaming
… is this of interest to the rest of the W3C?

Tzviya Siegman: https://www.w3.org/2018/12/games-workshop/

Tzviya Siegman: especially Accessibility, very broadly of interest to W3C
… and Gaming likely broader interest as well. There was recently a Workshop on Web Games

Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): regarding Gaming
… as it relates to Web Publications
… might be enough of new perspectives to put into discussion
… in Japan, some Japanese entertainment companies are providers, such as Anime
… this is still a proposed agenda to be discussed by the PC
… and then after we will finalize with you
… there is interest to have non-traditional publishing people
… that is where that is
… I mentioned probably other people could be invited into the discussion
… also I will ask Makoto to coordinate with Daisy Japan to participate
… to have a global point of view
… also Accessibility issue
… to discuss Japanese people’s interests

Luc Audrain: Thank you, Daihei

3. EPUB3 CG Resolution

Wendy Reid: I have a quick question
… about meeting in Japan
… I hear about Gaming
… but also wondered about the chapterization of books
… our Rakuten colleagues say Japanese offer a service chapter by chapter
… and you see ads
… I think it’s something quite pertinent to what we are doing; wonder if we would see something there?

Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): yes, this could be interesting
… the chapter by chapter has been an established practice, especially for Manga
… several ways to provide and review content
… readership increased
… with chapter reading
… and large audiences help to secure the advertising income
… I will share that topic with the program committee
… Speaking of new business model on ebooks in Japan
… there are several others outside of Manga
… the business case, or business model
… that we should bring into a publication discussion
… we will discuss in PC and report back

Wendy Reid: Sounds good, thank you

Luc Audrain: Thank you, Daihei
… more comments?

Tzviya Siegman: If we can master that, that would be huge; not just for Manga

Luc Audrain: thank you, Tzviya
… Dave, may I ask you if you can inform us about the last EPUB3 CG meeting; the resolution to downgrade this issue for navigation from error to warning

Dave Cramer: You did a good summary
… faced with feedback, we advised EPUBCheck to change the error to a warning for when the order of links in the primary navigation file does not match the spine order
… we don’t know enough to make a change at that point
… not completely sure how much reading systems are using the doc structure exposed in the nav file
… plan to build some test books with nav out of order and see what impact that has on reading systems

Luc Audrain: part of resolution was to work on it
… on the question of modifying or how to modify EPUB3.2 spec for the future
… after the test that Dave mentioned
… I am also aware that EPUBCheck is being modified these days
… and should be available in a new release this week
… that brings this error to warning
… will be settled for the Japanese market
… it will be an infomessage
… that clearly says it may change in the future
… after further discussions about the specification

Rachel Comerford: Just speaking about these maintenance updates
… do we have any updates on the funding of EPUBCheck? And the current state of fundraising?

Luc Audrain: We are still able to finance the current development until the end of this year
… We had a management call with Daisy Consortium last week
… but there is a need for an additional $51KUSD to complete the plan
… we plan to relaunch
… a fundraising call at the end of summer
… like September based on clear tasks that will be accomplished in the next six months or next year, 2020
… The tasks will be listed in a friendly document, not too technical
… and ask for funding for the additional $50K
… that is the plan. Anyone can contribute right now

Rachel Comerford: Thank you

Luc Audrain: Before we have this discussion about objectives
… we propose to cancel the calls on 23 and 30 July
… to have a small break for summer
… and reconvene in August
… I know the PubWG is also having a break
… thank you for PubWG members being here today

Garth Conboy: specifically, what meetings will be cancelled?

Luc Audrain: The next one is Asian friendly time on next Tuesday, 23rd/Wednesday Japan
… next one is European friendly on Tuesday, 30th

Garth Conboy: I have cancelled both of those now

Luc Audrain: thank you, Garth; always so efficient
… there is a meeting next week, remote, on the Publishing strategy and W3C
… the PubSC has invited Avneesh to come and be a member
… there were many +1s
… we discussed for plans for strategy for 2020
… Avneesh had useful comments
… without objectives it is difficult to plan for strategies
… as co-chairs we have prepared a list of objectives
… which we discussed around some kind of model
… idea to put objectives
… a list of five bullet points in the agenda
… what we could call objectives
… what we expect Pub at W3C to do
… for the publishing community
… these five bullets are about existing standards like EPUB that are operational today
… we rely on EPUB3 already
… that was a big achievement from EPUB3 CG and the EPUBCHeck being modified
… by the PubBG, and development of this new release
… So this is first real objective, to maintain EPUB3 and EPUBCHeck
… Let me present all the points before taking questions
… Second one is Publications on the web
… We have a place to think about Web Publications
… two years in the WG, a huge effort
… expect a deliverable in the first semester of 2020
… Web Publication for Audio Books
… other discussions in this area that would bring specializations, depending upon needs of industry
… what is not clear is what the PubWG will do after the publication of Audio Books
… One objective is to identify needs from the publishing industry for publishing on the web
… on higher level, we think different kind of books may have different needs
… and something could help to define the needs of the publishing industry
… and to collect needs by sectors

Bill Kasdorf: I would suggest changing “books” to “publications”

Luc Audrain: we had this idea that STEM would need web publications; but we have not seen this result today
… PubBG would be place to identify needs of the whole industry
… also identify needs…what we do in publishing with web tech needs to be improved, rendering content
… rendering content on web with web tech we have issues
… there we have understood that CSS is place we should contribute to fulfill this objective
… there are some difficulties because we need resources to contribute here
… thanks to some of you, like Dave, there are huge efforts
… We can also expect new features could be incubated and tried
… between web people and publishing industry
… where we have a new PubCG in place
… they started recently
… and the visual narratives CG
… to bring new narrations to the web
… places where these [ideas] can be incubated
… these are the five areas of the bullet points. Now invite your comments

Bill Kasdorf: +1 to the five bullets and their sub-bullets. Great work from the chairs!

Tzviya Siegman: I just want to say first of all
… the objectives here are just a draft and we do need feedback
… I had envisioned the objectives being a bit broader
… In some ways, this reminds me of the charters we already have
… so the current charters may have not worked out as well as we hoped
… we have had issues getting feedback from all the sectors we need
… would be nice to get feedback from scholarly community, but our approach to date has not worked
… our needs are not reflected yet
… The objective should be to assess the needs and do a gap analysis
… to see what the web and publishing are lacking
… maybe we need to refine this a bit
… to assess where our previous actions have not worked as well as hoped
… and where we got caught up in vision before needs
… I would hope we would have more clear documentation of business needs
… We are all aware of business needs, but if they are not documented, we cannot actually work on them

dave: a couple of things
… on the smaller scale, I think we need some clarity
… we need to figure out what we are talking about when we say ‘web publications’
… there are already publications on the web
… Moby Dick as blog post
… read scholarly content online
… in some sense the problems of publications on the web are business problems, not technical problems
… careful not to solve business problems by creating new technologies
… I agree with Tzviya it would be good to have a higher level layer
… to answer questions of what our mission is
… what sort of world are we trying to get to
… and things
… the gaps in the web platform; what we want to do but cannot
… are those technical; can those problems be solved by W3C

Dave Cramer: https://twitter.com/dauwhe/status/1149681148957745152

Dave Cramer: what makes EPUB, EPUB
… posting one of my Twitter rants which touches on some of these points

Luc Audrain: thank you; that has been ready by many people

Avneesh Singh: coming to same things but from different directions
… two questions I asked were our target audience, our target beneficiaries
… and what will compel them to come to this work
… if we do not have answers to these questions, then we are shooting in the dark
… it answers some questions
… EPUB3 has a short-term plan
… to push this ecosystem effectively
… Beyond this, in SC, it also indicates another thing
… is our target only IDPF audiences, or beyond?
… to reset our mindset about EPUB3
… when I saw the initial agenda in the publishing strategy document, it is highly focused on EPUB3

Karen Myers: ,…I would like to suggest we remove this anchor from our minds

Avneesh Singh: not everyone is from the EPUB world
… and they want solutions
… maybe how to capitalize on EPUB
… maybe the right question is what format are you using and what do you need
… maybe some distance from EPUB3, we will get new answers
… also George was talking about other docs
… why these cannot be on HTML page publications
… where we talk about the future
… with a reset I think we can get to a solution in a better way
… maybe reset from EPUB3

Karen Myers: .,..and see where we want to go collectively

Garth Conboy: I agree with much of what Avneesh said, but think we need to be careful
… the whole Publishing@W3C was initiated by a merger of the IDPF into W3C
… and EPUB was the lifeblood of the industry
… be careful not to be pejorative to EPUB
… it is an important animal to be nurtured going forward

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: +1 to feeding and nurturing EPUB

Garth Conboy: we got to WP because we tried to make a clean break from EPUB
… think of EPUB as a fine sailing ship, not an anchor

Avneesh Singh: Just to clarify, Garth
… what I am saying there is a strong constituency of IDPF members
… what i am saying is to look to a broader constituency beyond EPUB
… talk about future in web oriented world
… another part of constituency is not totally satisfied with EPUB
… maybe scholarly is example
… these are people who can provide us some strong business cases
… who can help us to make publishing on the web more successful

Tzviya Siegman: I wanted to reiterate what Avneesh said
… we are not killing EPUB; it’s strong and good
… but maybe consider what to add in the future

Luc Audrain: More comments from others?

Rachel Comerford: going forward as we prepare for this meeting for next week
… a couple things to keep in mind
… make sure that we are collaborating
… in a single location
… in a single group

Karen Myers: ..to establish these objectives and keep our proposed agendas and details in mind

Rachel Comerford: keep these conversations moving forward
… propose we try to keep all of this in the Google doc that Wendy had started
… keep all of that commentary and conversation together in one place
… Getting the conversation started
… next week is to start by talking about the things we all agree upon, what we know to be true
… EPUB is not something that is going away, and not something we want to go away
… and some other truths we want to perpetuate as a group
… putting those out there in writing may help us to not revisit those conversations and lose time in going through them over and over again
… I will with Wendy’s permission add a section to the agenda
… these are the things we know to be true

Luc Audrain: +1 to Rachel

Rachel Comerford: we can have that as our strong starting point going into the conversation
… I see a strong support on irc

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: I wanted to note that having this conversation here today
… was to help us in thinking about what these objectives are
… that document is not a public doc and will not be a public doc
… we will take solicitation of ideas
… there is a tiny proprietary piece of SC business that we cannot share with everyone

Luc Audrain: Thank you, Liisa

Rachel Comerford: I definitely appreciate that and thank you for sharing that
… I was surprised to see PWG work may be adjourned until publishing sectors pushes reveal
… I was a bit panicky
… pushing a message that PWG might retire or stop working seemed like an extreme message to throw out in a public draft

Luc Audrain: Ok
… It’s not an affirmation, just a question
… I understand the @ is questioning the post charter

Avneesh Singh: better to say: “Further work on PWG will continue after collecting strong business cases from industry”

Luc Audrain: I understand that PubWG charter will end; there is a big question for the working group
… what do you mean by mis-interpreting, Tzviya?

Tzviya Siegman: Some of tweets
… when people see ‘suspending’ does not necessarily mean ‘ending’
… concerned that people think that we are ending the PubWG
… the charter will end, but not decisions have been made
… ending the charter is not under discussion
… let’s be careful what we put in public
… tweet, ‘since web publications is dead, here is my proposal’
… in the past week or so

Luc Audrain: not just now; that is a big issue

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: Tzviya, that is a great lesson to take now and in our conversations next week
… it is easy to be misinterpreted
… one objective is to show on-going work to support publishing both on and off the web

Luc Audrain: ok
… more comments from people who did not express their thoughts until now?
… I understand that there is a need for a higher level of something
… of objectives
… I don’t know how and who could work on that for the meeting next week
… or it’s something we try to extract from this draft of objectives?

Dave Cramer: I can help work on it

Rachel Comerford: I am happy to help as well since we need to shape an agenda

Action #1: work on agenda refinement (Dave Cramer)

Action #2: work on agenda refinement (Rachel Comerford)

Luc Audrain: Also speak about publishing industry, inside W3C, we are very few
… on a personal view
… I think it’s very positive to see how many people are in the EPUB3 CG
… there were more than 250 people who have registered for this CG
… I understand they are not always there or on calls or irc
… but it’s a huge group, which means people receive information, agendas on the mailing lists
… but by the way, other groups are not so populated with publishers
… we know it’s difficult for publishing orgs to be full members of W3C
… after merger of IDPF and W3C
… we understood there was a TPI period of two years, but it’s not being continued by many publishers
… even if we have @ we are not adding so many people
… the audience is not easy
… as co-chairs we think the PubBG can be a hub
… to collect news from publishing industry, to look at things being done without standards in the business
… some digital publications like web toons
… question of audience and target is not an easy one; I would like to push on that discussion
… I see no one on the queue
… Thank you for your help and comments
… in the agenda we had one more technical point about metadata needs and best practices
… I don’t think there is time

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: I think not

Luc Audrain: Liisa, can you speak to that?
… we think the BG should work more efficiently
… with your help we should identify business cases and business issues and we should work on them until we get some kind of resolution
… we should work on a proposal basis
… one or more people work on these points
… bring proposals and then we have resolutions
… and we explain these resolutions
… we think we should work more on a point by point basis
… as proposals
… this means we cannot have a call every week
… we would have two calls per month
… one for European and one for Asian times
… these people would agree to take these business points and have time to work on it

Karen Myers: ..on their own by discussions by calls outside the PubBG calls

Luc Audrain: we would have two calls per month
… but have a list of business points that would be
… .taken by one or two people
… and it could also be a month later
… could be a European or Asian business case
… if we don’t agree, we have discussions, but in the end we have a resolution
… that is the plan for the end of summer
… any comments or questions?

Avneesh Singh: I think the business group has a very important role to play in W3C
… W3C does standards for web development
… where publishing has important role to explore business cases and put them in front of the technical community
… I like this plan

Luc Audrain: Thank you, Avneesh
… We are at top of the hour
… thank you all for your contributions

Karen Myers: [adjourned]

4. Action Items