Publishing Steering Committee Telco — Minutes
Date: 2018-08-24
See also the Agenda and the IRC Log
Attendees
Present: Jun-ichi Yoshii, George Kerscher, Ivan Herman, Daihei Shiohama, Rick Johnson, Luc Audrain, Tzviya Siegman, Bill Kasdorf, Karen Myers, Rachel Comerford, Jeff Jaffe, Liisa McCloy-Kelley, Ralph Swick
Regrets:
Guests:
Chair: Luc Audrain
Scribe(s): Karen Myers
Content:
1. epubcheck
Tzviya Siegman: Luc, Rachel and I met with review committee
… they made comments which we passed along to SC
… their recommendation; four proposals from 3 groups
… DAISY’s proposal is strongest
… Suberic’s proposal also strong
… suggestion to sub-contract with them
… amounts of time, industry knowledge, EPUB knowledge, ability to integrate with existing tools and workflows
… we need to figure out what to do with that
… George is with DAISY
… we should announce on 27th August which is Monday
Luc Audrain: Any comments on this proposal?
… or this summary?
Rick Johnson: What do we expect to be in place for governance, especially if we recommend sub-contracting
… is it the SC that does it, a sub-group, what are our thoughts?
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: Rick’s good question threw me off; want to clarify what we are going to announce
… do we announce number of people who submitted, share any decision making, or just announce who won it?
Tzviya Siegman: I would prefer to announce just who won it
… and leave it up to DAISY to announce whether they sub-contract
… not good idea to announce who lost
… Rick’s question is good; we need to figure out oversight, milestones
… so we need to work with awardee to figure this out
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: Do we tell them that we recommend a subcontract?
Tzviya Siegman: who is question to?
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: to you; would you tell Deborah that we made that recommendation?
… although ultimately it’s up to DAISY to make her that offer
… what are we going to tell individually the people who did not get it
Tzviya Siegman: I know Deborah and would she would want to know what happened
… I would say yes, we should tell her
… with Evident Point, a polite thank you
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: +1 to telling Deborah
Tzviya Siegman: unless there are different opinions
Rachel Comerford: was going to say largely what Tzviya said
… polite note to Evident Point
… reach out to Debra that her proposal influenced
… but ultimately chose DAISY
… and leave it up to DAISY if they reach out to Suberic; a recommendation not a requirement
… seems we are forcing their hand to tell a vendor to reach out to them
Bill Kasdorf: ultimately it’s DAISY’s decision on sub-contracting
… but also remind folks we said that the SC would evaluate proposals
… but the BG as a whole would approve the selection
… in which case the announcement should not be made before Tuesday [when BG meets]
Luc Audrain: yes, that is a real next meeting on Asian time
… could be announced there
… My position is we respond individually to Suberic and Evident Point
… and announce to Pub BG that DAISY has been chosen
… this will have better momentum to go onto next steps
Tzviya Siegman: I recall saying that this decision should be exclusively with the SC
Rachel Comerford: I also recall the decision living with the SC
Bill Kasdorf: yes the decision was with the SC but the BG was to approve that decision. I’m quite sure that’s what the minutes say.
George Kerscher: I am concerned about conflict of interest; I will abstain on voting
… I spoke with Richard and Avneesh
… we think that having more programmers and coders knowledgeable about EPUB Check helps
… in the stability of the software
… DAISY is willing to explore bringing on Suberic as part of the team
… it would be a percentage
… we would add a percentage of their time; I think there are two people there
… that is something we would be willing to explore
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: I want to go back to a point of order on how we engage the BG
… cannot announce without having brought to them first
… and question of is this is something we can do on the call on Tuesday
… would you be open to write up for the BG to get feedback over weekend and Monday
… and finalize Tuesday night and announce on Wednesday
Luc Audrain: Good idea
Rachel Comerford: I want to add and echo what Tzviya put in the notes
… I don’t recall leaving the decision with the BG; but with the SC
… and SC would take decision of group analyzing the proposals and decide to accept or reject
… I don’t recall that the decision would go to the BG to vote on
Bill Kasdorf: no question that SC was to make the decision
… but I’m pretty sure we said we would get BG decision as matter of protocol
… not to ask for input since decision is final now
… I think minutes will say that
Luc Audrain: We need to explore minutes before Tuesday
… I agree that SC has taken the decision to mandate to DAISY Consortium; decision has been taken
Bill Kasdorf: I agree
Luc Audrain: In terms of protocol, we should expose this to the BG
… why or how decision has been taken
… I would like to come back to Rick’s question on governance
… some people or instance
… should survey, give orders, see that the job is done on time?
Rick Johnson: My thoughts were fairly pragmatic
… we’ll have milestones
… someone will need to receive reports from company awarded
… if milestone is missed, who resets deadlines
… pragmatic governance things
… and acceptance at the end
Rachel Comerford: Good question; do you have a suggestion for solution?
Luc Audrain: Rick?
George Kerscher: There will also be decision to be made during the project.
Bill Kasdorf: +1 to oversight subcommittee
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: +1 to a subcommittee
Rick Johnson: Either the SC as a whole, although that gets cumbersome; or we appoint someone
Luc Audrain: We could call that a TF
… part of SC
… one, two or three persons who figures out what the milestones are
… and check if deliverables are ready at the milestones
… and this is tied to the funding
… milestones are also points for payment
… would be green light to pay developers for the job they have done
Rachel Comerford: My next question to this group as a whole; do we have any volunteers for that task force and to map out the milestones?
Luc Audrain: I volunteer
Rachel Comerford: awesome
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: +1 to Luc!
Luc Audrain: It’s related to EPUB Roadmap TF
… only thing is I am not available for the next month
… I was at office the whole summer and will finally take vacations
… and also the workshop in Tokyo
… from 24 September
Tzviya Siegman: I am happy to get it started and hand off to you
Luc Audrain: Let’s have first steps to announce company chosen
… kick off project
… start time, start date when this kick-off, milestones; future dates for deliverables
… I am happy Tzviya if you could keep on board for kick-off
… and I will take the rest
Ivan Herman: I looked at the SC minutes
… there is one not on this list when I was on vacation
… at first glance, I did not see any reference to what the role of the BG would be in this decision
… but maybe someone wants to look again; I don’t see anything definitive on that
Ivan Herman: https://w3c.github.io/publ-bg/Steering_Committee/Meetings/
Luc Audrain: I would not think it is very interesting to have a new discussion inside the global BG
… my opinion is we have done our job and propose/expose the decision
Ivan Herman: I tend to agree with that
Bill Kasdorf: right, we never wanted discussion after the SC made the decision
Rick Johnson: +1
Luc Audrain: Other co-chairs; any objections on that point?
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: I agree we should announce
… maybe it’s for the Pub BG to look at short-term requirements and make sure we have addressed everything as we hand off
… just in case anything is missing, we capture it as the work gets started
Luc Audrain: Good, that should be inside
… The group that is going to be managing the work
… that would also be the group that figures out the terms in the contract?
… the negotiations with DAISY, milestones, deliverables and payments
Luc Audrain: Yes, there will be something about contracts, so some legal points, you mean?
Rachel Comerford: +1 to task force also working through negotiations and milestones
George Kerscher: yes
… is this an MoU, a contract
… not sure of form
… DAISY is flexible
Luc Audrain: Tzviya, it is on your part at the very beginning
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: +1 to TF working through negotiations as well
Tzviya Siegman: We do need to have a discussion about the fund raising
… We discovered as George warned us…and we should have listened
… the W3C has a significant overage that we cannot work with
… EDRLab does not have experience
… If DAISY does fundraising and the work is a bit fishy
… I don’t know much about contracts
… we would have a master service agreement and an SOW of the work
… I don’t think DAISY would do that with itself
George Kerscher: We need to separate the contract from the fundraising
… we envision money in, money out
… how we have done in past with other organizations like braille group
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: What we have to be most careful about money in/money out with money going back to DAISY
… we need some legal opinion or tax opinion on the best way to do this
… whether W3C does help in some way
… if DAISY does both of them; or if a transfer comes back
… what you said yesterday about DAISY handling them is awesome
… just make sure the money out side is taken care of
George Kerscher: and authorization from this body to make the payment to the contractor, which happens to be the same org
Luc Audrain: Do we have a plan B?
… some organization as skilled as DAISY with international funding and payments that would be able to play the role?
… Is W3C able to do that?
Tzviya Siegman: For W3C, we would need to pay 35% or a similar amount to one of the other hosts
… Bill, you might know answer whether BISG has ever done anything like this
Bill Kasdorf: I think organizations making contributions will need to know if their contributions are tax deductible so to Liisa’s point, we need professional counsel on this
… So I can ask Brian [O’Leary]
Luc Audrain: We need some international structure
… I don’t know if Editeur has sub-contractors; we should ask Graham
Rick Johnson: seems we have had a conversation with Brian
… they are US focused and challenged to set up international donations
Bill Kasdorf: why Editeur is a more likely candidate
Luc Audrain: we also have the Readium foundation
… can that be used? They are in our ecosystem
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: I think Readium has had trouble collecting their own bills to be blunt
Luc Audrain: We talked about EDRLab, but they are not used to fund raising
… and it would be in Euros and may be difficult
Tzviya Siegman: Since DAISY has experience
… I think we should talk with whomever we need to talk to at DAISY before we talk to others in other orgs
… George, if you can put me in touch with the right people
George Kerscher: Sure
Luc Audrain: Let’s start with that proposal
… does not answer Rick’s question completely about governance
… we will have this SC Task Force about that
… Rick, ok for TF to govern project?
Rick Johnson: yes, that would be my recommendation
Luc Audrain: So topic about the fundraising
… where are we today?
… Rachel, you have the information about that?
Tzviya Siegman: We need to talk with DAISY about setting it up
… if W3C, we have the amount for the host
Rachel Comerford: We need a place to host and a plan on how that money is stored
Luc Audrain: this needs to be checked with DAISY in future days and shared with SC
1.1. fundraising
Bill Kasdorf: also make the point to do the fundraising, host the site and getting activity is separate from the money handling
… likely we should find a place to host the announcement and get the fundraising going
… as soon as someone comes forward with money to contribute, we need a place to receive the money
George Kerscher: the fundraising responsibility seems like the responsibility of the Pub BG
… I was thinking publishing at W3C would be a good place for that
Bill Kasdorf: +1 to Publishing@W3C for the web hosting
George Kerscher: and whatever asks we put out to the community
… whether blogs or emails or updates
… would go through that
… but I was not thinking that DAISY would be driving a fundraising campaign
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: I don’t think any of us thought DAISY would drive the fundraising
Bill Kasdorf: just handling the receipt of funds
Tzviya Siegman: We have copy for the tiers of funding
… we have some commitments
… W3C team has said they will host web site
… but we need a button to click for where the money goes
… like Bill said, they are separate
… different processes for payment and invoicing
Luc Audrain: If W3C takes the web site hosting, who does that?
Tzviya Siegman: We need to figure that out now
Ivan Herman: I am happy to put up any content you give me
… I am not the authority for that, but at a minimum using the W3C Publishing blog is doable
… but better to use the W3C central blog
… something Coralie [Mercier, head of comm] needs to say
… my bosses are here to comment
… I am happy to do the practicalities but I need the content
Luc Audrain: Rachel, you said we have the wording
Rachel Comerford: yes, there is a Google doc that many people contributed to
Luc Audrain: So we can start to set up this web site?
Ralph Swick: [Ralph concurs with what Ivan stated]
Tzviya Siegman: not web site yet, we need info on where the money goes
… we cannot set up until we are ready to receive the money
… would be a frustrating experience to not be able to pay
Ivan Herman: not necessarily a separate web site, but a web page
Luc Audrain: We can start to work on this page and not make it public; share it among us with SC
… we have to in parallel work on the button
… and what is behind the button, do this in parallel
… and then release the URL to this web page
… and work in parallel with these pages
Ivan Herman: Who will give me the content?
Tzviya Siegman: We have the Google doc we have all agreed on
… if you can take this over, you can talk to Coralie?
Rachel Comerford: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Wp_fRMd4aM_73K_bhajIybT-AFOzW_eVC5OHuBlR5iw/edit
Tzviya Siegman: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Wp_fRMd4aM_73K_bhajIybT-AFOzW_eVC5OHuBlR5iw/edit?usp=sharing
Ivan Herman: next week, there are several days when Coralie is on a meeting with travel
Ralph Swick: Likely I can find some F2F time with Coralie next week
Ivan Herman: ok
Luc Audrain: Ok, we have some kind of a plan
… we have some steps
… Can we move onto other topics
Bill Kasdorf: I want to point off it all these ducks are in a row when we go public
… but it’s also possible for an org to make a pledge before everything is in place; that is also common
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: I also wanted to say that
… if figuring out the web site for fundraising and logging in, we could just have a link for people to sign up for commitments
… and then follow up with them when we have the tech to do so
Luc Audrain: a second page behind this commitments page?
Ivan Herman: I have to think about it
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: We are not asking for identifying information
Ivan Herman: It can be writable
… next week, not this week
Luc Audrain: We have to clarify in parallel question of funding and payments with DAISY
… ok, let’s move on to other topics
… several other topics; we cannot cover all of them
… is there an urgent one?
… Discussions with EPUB and Mozilla
… and Liisa had topic on next steps of TPI memberships
… next publishing champion
Bill Kasdorf: I was going to point out that if we don’t want the W3C to be handling the money it may actually be best for the website to collect pledges and then follow up separately on the actual financial transactions
Luc Audrain: and a possible conference in 2019
… and George you wanted to talk about ISO
… Do you have any preference?
Bill Kasdorf: I put my comments in the irc
… If we don’t want W3C to handle money, might be good to have transaction separated from web site
2. BG call agenda
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: Two topics
… any topics for Tuesday meeting in Asian time
… and anything we’d like to say to Jeff about our needs for a Publishing Champion
Luc Audrain: Agenda for next [Pub BG] call
… question of EPUB Check
George Kerscher: meetings for ISO are Sept. 12
… So Makoto will state that these things are on the agenda; just a report to the group
Luc Audrain: that is a good idea
… it’s an Asian concern, so good idea to put on the agenda for the next call
… more items for the next [Pub BG] call agenda?
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: And we should talk about the EPUB Check requirements
Luc Audrain: yes, the questions about whether there are some recently discovered issues?
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: yes
Luc Audrain: This should be part of EPUB Check items
… I am not available to prepare the agenda, so I leave it to you, Rick or Liisa to send it
… and do you want EPUB documents?
Tzviya Siegman: no
… Rachel, Dave [Cramer] and I have been speaking on that
… want to have a discussion with this group first
… and discuss before bringing to the BG
3. publishing champion
Luc Audrain: next item to discuss is publishing champions
… what is the news from W3C management?
Jeff Jaffe: Most of you are aware that Bill McCoy left W3C about a month ago
… We first looked internally for a champion; discussed with several internal candidates
… but most are quite busy with their day jobs
… and not able to have the full attention that I would like to see the champion spending
… I was in NYC and met with some people and got some input
… need to get additional input
… Suffice it to say, that if anyone has ideas on who should be the next champion of publishing at W3C; some people said maybe we don’t need one
… So please send me emails with your thoughts
… I see it as a one quarter time job
… what we should be doing
… Ivan on technical; Karen on busdev: Ralph on architecture; Judy on access.; so could be someone who consults
… someone who is well liked, knowledgeable, understands industry, has contacts and insights
… happy to leave it at that for now unless others want to queue up
Luc Audrain: Any comments?
… Thank you, Jeff
Jeff Jaffe: the question of who it should be is a personnel topic, so I would not expect nominations on this call
… so feel free to send me input via email at Jeff@w3.org
Luc Audrain: There is another item about TPI member transition
… is that related to the question of championship?
Tzviya Siegman: That was Liisa’s question
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: We as an SC have a significant role to help Karen and others at W3C to help working this
… does any of this have a grid of everyone we had in IDPF membership
… where those people landed in TPI land?
… make sure that they at least join the BG moving forward
… I had conversations that they never really got through that TPI membership
… Bill was focused on collecting the back IDPF fees
… and did not get the get involved with the TPI membership
… so some people did not see anything
… Is there a grid?
… Did Bill have a grid?
Jeff Jaffe: on the team we definitely have a listing of all the TPI members
… the team is responsible for chasing them, and Liisa, I appreciate your raising this to the SC. We need a lot of help
… the ones on SC, leadership who gets what we are trying to do
… help with transitioning from TPI to BG or regular membership
… but after a year or more of not getting the story across, we have some work to do
… starts with value prop on why people should want to be part of this organization
… SC can help me so I appreciate your raising this issue, Liisa
Ralph Swick: yes, we do have records
… of the full set if IDPF members who were eligible and the full set who chose to participate
… some were eligible but we never heard from them
George Kerscher: in addition to convert some of the older folks
… a campaign to bring in new blood to BG would be really interesting
… part of ongoing promotion of publishing at W3C
… if we can get that ironed out and not lose people we have got
Luc Audrain: That is end of the hour
… We have this call on Pub BG on Tuesday; as I said I will not be available for the next three weeks
George Kerscher: that call is 23UTC, right?
Luc Audrain: Yes
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: I will send out the agenda for that call
… hopefully someone else can help me run it
Tzviya Siegman: chance I may be late
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: I cannot run the irc as I will be in a car
Tzviya Siegman: I will do everything I can to be there
Rick Johnson: I will be there
Luc Audrain: Rick, will you be there?
Liisa McCloy-Kelley: thanks all
Luc Audrain: thank you all