Publishing Steering Committee Telco — Minutes

Date: 2019-01-11

Attendees

Present: Ivan Herman, Tzviya Siegman, Luc Audrain, Daihei Shiohama, Dave Cramer, George Kerscher, Bill Kasdorf, Karen Myers, Rachel Comerford, Liisa McCloy-Kelley, Jeff Jaffe, Garth Conboy

Regrets: Wendy Reid, Luc Audrain, Rick Johnson

Guests:

Chair: Ivan Herman

Scribe(s): Dave Cramer, Karen Myers

Ivan Herman: I’ll chair today
… let’s start

1. BG co-chairing

Ivan Herman: first agenda item is the co-chair of the BG
… Rick has resigned
… we don’t have a fully-baked process to get a chair

Bill Kasdorf: half baked works fine for me

Luc Audrain: we have explain to the PBG that Rick stepped down
… we haven’t had a PBG call since mid-December
… we had contact with Daihei in December, who consented to be a candidate for co-chair
… with support from Liisa and I
… for the sake of fairness, we should ask for any other candidates, and ask on the next BG call
… we would verify there are no other candidates, and propose Daihei

Jeff Jaffe: Daihei++

Ivan Herman: daihei++ indeed:-)

Luc Audrain: Daihei is supported by the publishing industry in Japan

George Kerscher: daihei would be wonderful

Daihei Shiohama: thank you
… you did a good job of explaining :)
… we need to get confirmation from the members of PBG
… on behalf of Asian publishers, I would to contribute to the publishing BG
… from a business point of view as well as coordinating technology.
… I will do my best

Ivan Herman: thanks very much that you accept this
… on a practical level

Karen Myers: +1 Daihei’s role

Ivan Herman: 1. do you want to send an email to the BG before the meeting?
… 2. We have the call on Tuesday. Do we want to have a time limit on other candidates? And when would we choose?

Luc Audrain: I understand there is no formal process for BGs
… it should be fair
… we have already discussed agenda for next BG call, and put the information in the agenda
… the stepping down of Rick, the call for other candidates, and the proposal of Daihei with the support of the chairs
… I don’t know how long
… I’ll send the agenda tonight

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: I think we should give them a week

Ivan Herman: If we have no other candidates after a week, then we’re OK
… otherwise we have a vote

Luc Audrain: on Tuesday we can present Daihei’s candidacy

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: after you send the Tuesday agenda, it would be nice if we could have rick send a more formal statement, and if Daihei could send an introduction of who you are and why you want to do this

Daihei Shiohama: no problem!

Ivan Herman: I agree

Karen Myers: +1 Liisa

George Kerscher: it’s already been addressed… as long as in the announcement that it is open for other people, and we have one candidate

Ivan Herman: we know what we want to do.

2. EPUB3.2 Rec track issue

Tzviya Siegman: this came up in the WG chairs call, and were talking about goals for the WG
… we would like to see this issue resolved so we can understand what the WG will be doing
… whether it comes to us or not, we do need to know the scope

Ivan Herman: to be very clear about it, we would need a decision, this has been dragging on for a long time
… we need some sort of clear statement

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: a clear statement of not now does not necessarily mean not 2019
… from the BG perspective, there can’t be a clear moving forward until there is more testing
… because the asian market will not support if there will be substantive changes
… and I don’t think we’ll have consensus until the BG is further along with testing

Jeff Jaffe: I wanted to restate the team’s POV
… first, I support Tzviya’s request
… the PWG started a couple years ago. We’re in the process of focusing in audio. I’d like to see a win for the PWG.
… it’s harder to have a win when there’s too much going on.
… in terms of which way, should it be on REC track or not?
… there was some discussion in earlier meetings, about how it is unclear how to navigate in w3c
… I still strongly believe that w3c is here for the benefit of its members, and the members should decide
… the community should decide
… if the community thinks rec track is of value, we could support that
… and we talked a bit about differences from the CG spec, that’s a solvable problem
… and if the community doesn’t want it, then that’s fine. We’re happy to go either way.

Dave Cramer: Perhaps, unsurprisingly, I have been thinking about this a lot over the past couple of months
… and I am coming to the personal conclusion that
… I don’t think it’s worth putting EPUB3.2 on the Rec Track at this point
… I heard and appreciate the value of testing and stand by that
… I have been doing a careful review of the spec
… I’m convinced EPUB can be a much better spec
… and ultimately I can see EPUB becoming a rec
… I would like to see EPUB a native way of how publications are expressed
… I am starting to think about how we can see them as an aspect of some future spec
… rather than this isolated thing by itself
… Want EPUB to evolve in concert with the web and other forms of publications related to the web
… Working on expressing that idea with more clarity in various forms
… Right now doing EPUB3.2 as Rec provides the value we need given the level fo effort

Rachel Comerford: I support whatever conclusion Dave comes to
… there are two things I want to say about previous comments
… without a timeline for discussing this as a group, we’re at risk for testing forever
… and we can continue to put off testing

Tzviya Siegman: +1 to Rachel’s comments about testing and timeline

Rachel Comerford: we have great conversations, but not a track record of doing work outside of meetings
… many members are not doing a lot of work
… the WG with paying membership has many more active members
… I do think testing is important, but we need to have a timeline
… the second thing is, we must be careful about not having one voice represent a community, especially when one voice is particularly loud
… I respect the experience they have, but we have to be careful when we say “the asian market” when we’re talking about a single person

Bill Kasdorf: this may have been discussed and decided
… my question and concerns are related to EPUB 4
… which we are chartered to do by the end of the year

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: so I’m interested to hear that dave feels the value is not necessarily there
… I’m also concerned about how this relates to EPUB 4
… what the BG expressed as a shared desire for 3.2 was that it was good, it was solid, it was supported
… and that it was stable

Luc Audrain: +1

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: making it rec track would help us in that stability, if not from a spec practice then from having the W3C imprimatur
… Rachel , I agree with your points—we need timelines, and we need better ways to ensure one voice does not drown out all overs
… Makoto was not the only voice against
… I’m happy to try to regroup the small team that was talking about this
… and to figure out a timeline on a decision
… we’re going to test from here to here, look at that from there to there… and then make a decision

George Kerscher: I wouldn’t want anybody to think that I’m speaking for the entire a11y community
… and I think Makoto’s presentation of himself as a spokesperson for several countries is something we should minimize
… having a 3.2 that the industry can use now and have confidence in is very important

Luc Audrain: +1

George Kerscher: I want to move it to REC track, but I don’t know the right time
… I think there are issues that REC would fix
… I think it should be there in the long term
… but resources are a big, big question
… a lot of us are very stretched.

Dave Cramer: I guess another way to express my concern is that I don’t want to do a Rec Track EPUB3.2 without understanding
… what the roadmap for EPUB in general is
… we don’t know EPUB4 would look like, the business case for it, and the relationship to our other efforts right now
… I want to have the big picture in place
… before doing all this work on Rec Track

Bill Kasdorf: +1 to Dave

Dave Cramer: know where we are going before we get in the car and start driving

George Kerscher: agree with Dave

Luc Audrain: as I hear about the position of the Asian industry, I would like to ask Daihei if he could express his view on that subject

Daihei Shiohama: I cannot represent all of Asia. I primarily spoke to the major publishers in Japan.
… we would like to continue with EPUB 3, and EPUB 3.2 is good enough
… as long as we can continue with the business, REC track is not needed immediately
… but we are not opposed to REC track, but we are concerned about the amount of time needed
… we don’t want EPUB 3.2 up in the air for such a long time
… we want EPUB 3 business to continue

Garth Conboy: I wanted to chime in on bill’s question
… EPUB4 as it was envisioned was going to be a profile of a packaged web publication
… that will not happen this year
… WP proper doesn’t have that much of a constituency, so packaging it doesn’t have a constituency
… we do seem to have a constituency for audio books,
… I am sensitive to Jeff’s comments about a need for a win; audio books might be that win

Luc Audrain: +1

Garth Conboy: I lean a bit towards REC track,
… maybe we can make 3.2 that win

Luc Audrain: +1

Garth Conboy: . EPUB 3.2 is significant; it should exist in the world, and we should make it as much of a standard as if it was blessed by IDPF

Ivan Herman: coming back to the original problem
… from the WG point of view, the current situation is disturbing
… we would have to recharter if we do REC 3.2
… it has been a problem for the WG for 6-7 months
… this question was lurking around
… the way I hear the various comments
… I have the impression there is no consensus to do REC track right now
… maybe we should decide on a date, when we will come back to the issue
… in the meantime the CG does testing work
… maybe we come back to the issue at TPAC or at the end of the year
… on a practical level, the WG charter ends in mid-2020. Maybe we look then, when all these issues converge
… the current, unclear status is the worst

Bill Kasdorf: what I’m hearing emerging here is that 3.2 isn’t an advance, it’s a clarification and
… let’s make sure we don’t drag on the ability to use something that works
… EPUB works for books. Other constituencies might need other things.

Luc Audrain: yes

Bill Kasdorf: let’s leave 3.2 to the CG
… take it out of the agenda for the WG
… let the WG address the future of EPUB
… let 3.2 do its job in the meantime

Luc Audrain: I would like to say that for the publishing industry, EPUB spec right now is in disturbed position, because of 3.1, which can’t be validated
… to get to a peaceful situation, the work of the CG is a win for the EPUB community. The big job is to present 3.2 as the final report of the CG for the community
… and we have EPUBCheck working on 3.2 in March 2019
… this is a win
… and EPUB 3 is not on the charter for the WG, and Audio can be the win for the WG

Proposed resolution: The CG will work on testing for <defined time period>. The WG will not work on EPUB 3.2. Test results will inform work on potential revisions of EPUB and possibly on WP. The BG can propose to bring 3.2 to REC track with the PWG should the group be rechartered. (Tzviya Siegman)

Rachel Comerford: +1 tzviya

Ivan Herman: let’s give ourselves five minutes to discuss this.
… I would leave out the last sentence

Luc Audrain: yes, please

Ivan Herman: or say the BG will discuss this again in a year

Luc Audrain: yes

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: six months. Let’s revisit in the summer.

Ivan Herman: how about TPAC?

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: I was hoping before TPAC to use TPAC time well

Luc Audrain: I don’t agree with last sentence

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: +1 to dauwhe

Jeff Jaffe: I assume where tzviya is coming from, she wants a focused schedule for the WG, and doesn’t want it to be interrupted in six months
… as a practical matter, that’s problematic for the WG. You can’t change direction every six months.

Proposed resolution: The CG will work on testing for <defined time period>. The WG will not work on EPUB 3.2. Test results will inform work on potential revisions of EPUB and possibly on WP. The BG will discuss REC track again at TPAC. (Tzviya Siegman)

Bill Kasdorf: +1 to Jeff

Luc Audrain: give it up until 2020

Ivan Herman: because we are nearly out of time on this agenda item
… would it be possible for the three co-chairs (including Daihei) to come up for a proposal for the BG?

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: yes, we can do that

Ivan Herman: put it on the agenda for the BG

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: does it need to be on Tuesday?

Ivan Herman: I would prefer that we deal with this on Tuesday.
… we will have discussions anyway in the WG, but this kind of scoping are taking a lot of energy and time in the WG

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: OK

Ivan Herman: we have to more agenda items
… let’s go to Karen first
… because it’s time-critical

3. NYC meeting

Karen Myers: thanks ivan
… tzviya had mentioned that since the AB was in NYC on January 23-24, that would be a good time to get the pub community together
… there will be a meetup on Jan 23 from 6 to 9PM
… Google has offered some sponsorship
… and we have a venue from our W3C friend in NYC

Karen Myers: https://www.mcny.edu/

Karen Myers: there’s a venue at Metropolitan College of New York
… the challenge is, we need $500 more, preferably $1000
… we have many new members in NY in the BG
… this is an appeal to see if we can get some money

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: Karen, has this become more a recruiting event?

Karen Myers: no. It’s a conversation with the AB, and to bring the community together. I’m just mentioning we have some new members to invite.

4. EPUBCheck funding

George Kerscher: we had talked about restarting fundraising in the new year, when people have new budgets
… right now, everyone is swamped after the holidays. If we give people a week or two to clear out their inboxes, we could send out a reminder at the beginning of February
… we can let people know how we’re doing. We’re about halfway there.

Luc Audrain: I support completely the idea
… some companies have been waiting
… I propose to have a post in W3C blog
… with the idea we are only at the middle of the bridge :)

Daihei Shiohama: Bill, how about the external coordination task force to remind people we’ve already reached out to. I can do that in Japan.

Bill Kasdorf: that makes a lot of sense. Give it another push.
… I’m traveling right now. I’ll be in EU but I can that done a little later.
… Daihei, you can go right ahead

George Kerscher: there will be an alpha out next week, we could coordinate with the EPUBCheck releases

Rachel Comerford: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1aNoIHoJYlPB_yn9bKv67gnLYcJK2z2_dhF-xAw2JxMU/edit#gid=0

Rachel Comerford: we were trying to track who we were approaching
… we have a spreadsheet (link above)
… there are orgs we haven’t contacted yet
… add info and volunteer!
… we’ve had a lot of success this way

Luc Audrain: Thank you Rachel !

Karen Myers: +1 Rachel