Publishing Chairs’ Telco — Minutes

Date: 2020-01-10

Attendees

Present: Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平), Wendy Reid, Dave Cramer, Tzviya Siegman, Liisa McCloy-Kelley, Luc Audrain, Bill Kasdorf, Ralph Swick, Avneesh Singh, Jeff Jaffe, Rachel Comerford

Regrets:

Guests:

Chair: Liisa McCloy-Kelley

Scribe(s): Dave Cramer, Wendy Reid

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: let’s get started

1. amazon

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: I’ve been working with them on bugs
… so have regular talks
… so they asked about w3c
… we want to be involved but don’t have a lot of time
… the BG might be interesting
… with the survey
… so they were excited about that
… what content isn’t supported etc
… they do want to understand more about that
… they can also lurk
… or reach out individually
… they don’t want it to look bad if they have to pull bad for other projects

Tzviya Siegman: that happens all the time, it’s totally normal for involvement to ebb and flow
… some large companies have been involved, and then not. They might come back.
… we have the test suite for audiobooks right now. That might be interesting to them.

Avneesh Singh: I heard the same, audio team is at a distance from Kindle

Jeff Jaffe: as a member of w3c, amazon has the ability to show up wherever they want
… so the Q is, can they show up unnoticed?
… we have a status for that, observer status
… it’s most important for a WG
… we want to make sure they aren’t contributing ideas
… if they are not members they haven’t made IPR committments
… the chairs can invite people as observers
… they are not participants
… having observers in a bg is less dicey because of no IPR issues
… CGs do have the IPR issue

Wendy Reid: the discussion I’ve had with amazon about kindle vs audible is that they are very far apart
… should we point amazon at test suite, and mention pub manifest?
… they were interested in feedback
… and how other reading systems get feedback from publishers
… is it worth mentioning epub as rec track to them? and saying that the tests are something we want to do? And getting more interop?
… they are interested in being a bit more open than in the past

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: based on what jeff said, we should encourage to get them involved in the BG
… we need to be mindful that only in the last few months have the kindle publishing guidelines mentioned epub
… but they’re always looking at ways to improve the reading experience
… and is there is a problem they have that epub advancing itself can help them with?

Jeff Jaffe: we should send them the survey

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: absolutely

Luc Audrain: amazon is interested in a11y, they have put a11y in their new guidelines, and they want to support more of that
… and that’s one of their motivations

Tzviya Siegman: many of us have relationships with amazon, with different people, which can be fragile
… but we should give them choices of which groups and how they participate
… we shouldn’t be overly cautious. We don’t need to protect them.

Ralph Swick: [there’s not a formal “observer” status on an ongoing basis; chairs may invite guests to selected meetings but that’s not expected to be an on-going invitation. However, Members may certainly subscribe to (or read archives of) mailing lists.]

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: I know the IP issues are a concern

Wendy Reid: we can invite them to both meetings in one week
… the BG meetings show one side of the activity; they should see a WG meeting
… or a CG meeting if they end up happening
… let’s expose them to both sides of the activity
… the topics, goals, and people are very different

Luc Audrain: the mail we have today is on public steering committee list, and many people can read these mails

Ralph Swick: [Luc is correct]

Ivan Herman: yes, the mailing list is public
… if, after our meeting in February, we have any chartering work

Ralph Swick: [more specifically, the mail archive is public; one subscribes to the list by joining the group]

Ivan Herman: we have to be very outgoing to get them discussing goals and targets of the charter
… they may or may not join the upcoming group

Wendy Reid: dauwhe: I wanted to mention that a core value is for us to work in public

Wendy Reid: … we don’t need to protect amazon, but we need to work in public

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: moving on, I wanted to give a brief update
… I think there’s a lot of new stuff in InDesign about accessibility, and we should make that more public

Luc Audrain: sorry, I didn’t hear what you said clearly
… we had contact with ??? about a11y in InDesign
… We have talked to Andrew Kirkpatrick about a11y
… we wrote to him about getting more news, but we haven’t had anything new since october

Bill Kasdorf: in terms of a11y in ID
… are they thinking of that in EPUB or PDF?

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: what leonard said was EPUB
… it’s under the hood

Luc Audrain: it’s in epub export

Rachel Comerford: +1 wendyreid

Wendy Reid: I really want to get to the F2F topic. This doesn’t seem like an SC topic but a BG topic?

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: I want to talk about the survey
… is it for just epub or for epub and beyond?

Dave Cramer: I think the survey should just be focused on EPUB and its future
… we should not be talking about web publications or bundles
… we want to know where EPUB should be going
… our audience is familiar with EPUB, its limitations
… it would be confusing to ask questions about WP or books as first class citizens of the web
… we should at least try to focus on EPUB

Tzviya Siegman: I agree with dave

Bill Kasdorf: +1 to Dave

Tzviya Siegman: but a lot of answers may inform other things that aren’t epub
… for example, being able to link from epub to epub

Jeff Jaffe: I also agree that it should be about epub
… we shouldn’t ask confusing questions about books on the web
… but we shouldn’t exclude that
… like open ended questions about the future of epub

Avneesh Singh: +1 to Jeff (we should not exclude)

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: we should frame the overall survey, but make sure sure the questions aren’t projecting answers

Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): fundamentally i agree with dave
… focus on epub on where it’s going
… but we should be open to all ideas from industry related people
… in december I was in asia and japan
… ??? educational publishing
… trade publishing is satisfied with epub 3.2
… they don’t want to confuse the issue
… but on the magazine side they need something outside epub
… seeing something outside they see that responsive design should be brought into digital publishing
… and w3c should be creating standards
… so we should listen to what they say
… we should hear from other parts of the publishing industry
… there are going to be some new ideas coming into epub and beyond epub

Wendy Reid: I agree with dave, we should be focused on epub
… we can ask about the future
… we should be sending it to more parts of the industry to understand what they’re missing
… responsive design should work in epub
… but there are reading system bugs
… standards-wise, it is certainly allowed
… and we should know where reading systems are failing them

Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): re: responsive design, it’s not just text and reflow
… we’re talking about education, with content with graphics, text, and video
… and then respoinsive design in epub 3 doesn’t work

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: we need to come to our f2f with a lot of information already out there
… so we can have a more decisive meeting
… can we start framing what we need to do before the meeting, and how to accomplish it
… should we keep going with the emails?

Jeff Jaffe: +1 to tzviya for starting the conversation
… for a successful meeting we need well-defined questions that we want to get answered in the meeting
… they could be structure questions, business questions
… after the meeting we should have a plan, energy, etc
… tzviya and liisamk volunteered to chair
… in a couple of weeks the chairs should be able to write a crisp list of what we want to get done in the next year
… what gets chartered, what gets done, what outreach, what conferences
… and then we can make specific committments in the meeting

Tzviya Siegman: I agree with that
… in advance we need to look what has worked well and what has not worked well in the pub activity
… we need to look at the division of labor
… what should be done in the BG vs WG
… and the BG chair may be changing
… Avneesh keeps reminding me that we’re mushing together goals and structure
… we need to figure out goals and then find a structure to achieve the goals
… so we need to be able to say what we need
… so we start writing a list of what I’d like to see in epub or some other standard

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: I can give us three assignments
… 1. keep converstation going about where we are and what we need to do
… 2. have a doc for aspirations and goals for our organizations, and where we want the community to go
… and what the sets of chairs think is working and what isn’t working for the various groups

Avneesh Singh: I am comning from different angle
… when I start on strategy, I begin with motivations
… the survey is important, but it may not be completed yet
… one motivation is a11y and i18n
… and we need to support IDPF community and make sure they are happy
… we described that IDPF provided an ecosystem with readium, epubcheck, etc.
… how is that sustainable in w3c?

Luc Audrain: +1000 to Avneesh

Avneesh Singh: some people would say they contributed to epubcheck, so why should they also pay for w3c membership?

Wendy Reid: +1 avneesh

Tzviya Siegman: +1 to Avneesh

Avneesh Singh: from the drivers we can come up with the objectives

Jeff Jaffe: Avneesh said that w3c needs revenue, but I don’t see that as a driver. We need to support the publishing community.

Bill Kasdorf: I think Avneesh was referring to funding for epubcheck etc.

Wendy Reid: I agree with Avneesh; he’s been so helpful to us in creating proper strategy
… we do need to get the survey out are dependent on us having a little back of feedback
… but if we can get it out in the next week or two we’ll have a healthy amount of feedback
… we already know what some of the motivations and feedback we’ll get
… we know what drives us crazy
… and we should remember that, and also learn what we don’t know about
… how do we maintain membership in our groups and give them a good experience
… we are responsible that we are providing a service to those who join

Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): in terms of business community needs, japan is first and one of largest in use of epub
… Asia is a very large market
… but I’m the only one on the SC
… I will make sure that we get survey feedback, and that issues from asia are on F2F agenda
… and combined into interest in w3c from asia

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: trying to wrap up this agenda item
… it sounds like avneesh wants us to add motivations for the strategy
… so I would like us to set a goal of working on the three documents, and also get a draft of the survey ready in the next two weeks

Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): +1 to Liisa

Luc Audrain: +1

Tzviya Siegman: I’d like to integrate the motivations into the other docs

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: agreeed

Tzviya Siegman: liisamk, I think that’s our job as chairs

2. F2F planning

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: you had questions about the a11y presentation at lunch. Is that OK?

Tzviya Siegman: is it oK with everyone?

everyone: yes

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: can you propose the hours for the day

Wendy Reid: +!

Tzviya Siegman: I was assuming 9 to 5

Wendy Reid: +1

Daihei Shiohama (塩濱大平): Okay

Bill Kasdorf: I would have to leave early to get a flight home if I come, which I’m considering doing

Tzviya Siegman: we will have a remote dial-in option

Luc Audrain: Thanks for remote

Tzviya Siegman: there will be lunch from Wiley
… in terms of location/logistics

Tzviya Siegman: https://www.w3.org/wiki/AB/2019-01-HOB

Tzviya Siegman: wiley hosted an ab meeting last year
… that link has logistic info
… we are close to public transport
… I don’t think anyone needs a visa, if you do contact me for a letter of invitation
… there will be coffee, but I’m not sure about breakfast
… liisamk, we should have a call to work out some logistics
… any other questions about Hoboken?

Liisa McCloy-Kelley: anything else to discuss?

Tzviya Siegman: if you have dietary restrictions please contact me
… I’m going to add a list of attendees

Ivan Herman: where should we put our names?

Tzviya Siegman: https://docs.google.com/document/d/12mOkAVcopnEA_-H1t_TQ0ocUKzgqeA1u-zcArPdsTss/edit?usp=sharing

Tzviya Siegman: in the draft agenda